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This change does nothing but remove an VERY attractive layer to the game. Now we're back to the same ol' xp/gear/rep grinds with no incentive to work together. This could've been a great improvement to WoW. *sigh* I don't even want to login right now.
As for the formula to calculate xp gained by the guild, it should be rigged so that even the largest guilds have to work hard to get to 25 in 6 months. Give your players something new to do Blizz. Give em a goal to work towards, that gives them a sense of accomplishment.
Summary: Guild cheevos that award xp are good. Taking things back after the fact is bad. Everyone will play differently - reward them all uniquely. Encouraging group play does not mean you are penalizing solo play... it's just different!
- - -
Throughout the day today - I along with about 13 other guildies had probably the absolute best time we have had playing this game in a VERY long time. We split into teams, rushed old world content, rejoined forces, hit up the old world raids, took a break and leveled a bit - then went back at it. Our goal today - quest and level as groups until we hit the daily cap then storm the instances like it was war! We got the 100 point achievements and absolutely loved the concept of being immortalized in our guild's history with the "Earned By" tool tips. This drove us further into the system. We hit our first meta with the old world dungeons and saw that bar jump up. These achievements brought cheering, excitement, and an overwhelming sense of enjoyment out of the game, the guild, and our cooperative efforts. I cannot imagine that you could have expected or desired anything less.
When we realized what had happened at the end of the AQ40 run (completing our classic guild raider.) I felt like someone just punched me in the stomach. After a full day of working towards common goals as a guild - I literally felt sick on behalf of my guildies. Instead of leveling their toons and exploring the new content - they wanted to contribute to something bigger than themselves. They wanted to work as a guild! You have now taken that wind from those sails. It was almost immediately back to the LFG tool and solo questing.
You have to allow yourselves to reach this reality; the game will not suit everyone, and no two people will ever get the same experience out of it.
I play to collect cheevos, raid, and provide a nice environment for our guildes. My daughter logs in for hours and pretends play as a pirate on the broken down ship in Stormwind - with about 20 other players!!! Others dance in the fountains for hours on end. If someone elects to guild up and deal with the good and the bad that accompanies their decision - let them! If they want to play a solo game - that is their choice as well. Giving tools, perks, or other benefits to guilds based on their ability, capacity, and desire to achieve them is ok; just as it is fair that those that were willing to grind out the raptor pet - should have something to show for it. If I didn't take the time in the six years provided to do so - that is on me... not you!
It takes hard work, drive, dedication from all members, and a tremendous commitment to build, maintain, and be a part of any successful group - including guilds in WoW. This can and should be rewarded. Bring back the talent trees, let us be unique. Bring back the guild earned cheevo experience; let us reward ourselves for growing. Bring back the discussion of guild halls, let us celebrate in our own style. Bring back the discussion of the tools that accommodate larger guilds, let us self-manage.
We are not as vocal as the masses in your 3-5 man casual guilds. This is because we are busy playing the game! We are your rep grinders, dungeon crawlers, and your multi-account core audience. Please don't continue to let the volume of the masses intimidate, confuse, and distract you.
Edited by Stashravens on 12/7/2010 11:17 PM PST
OK, there are really not too many big ticket items that Blizzard decides to do that really turns my crank but when one comes along that is just plain wrong, bad, poorly-thought-out and ill-advised, I need to say something!
1. Nerfing Frosty - WRONG. People who bought the collector's edition for the pet as described then got a WHACK from Blizz that turned the advertised item into this inferior item - small, small small and pretty ugly in comparison to advertised pet.
2. Real ID and identity posted on forums idea... major goof on Blizz' part.
And now, #3...
Limiting guild experience per day to a very low number and removing guild XP from guild achievements. This is just sooooo wrong from a player/guild/design perspective. It realllllllly removes a lot of the motivation and spirit for a guild to work on the guild achievements. That desire and motivation to come together as a guild to work on getting more achievements done and done before other guilds is a good thing as it gets guilds and guild members active, encourages more play and WoW world exploration and adds some healthy competition between guilds on a server.
This paltry guild XP daily limit is pretty lame... it is easy enough for even modest size guilds to cap out each day and thus results in a lot of guilds leveling at the same time.
At minimum Blizz needs to restore at least some guild XP to completing guild achievements and they need to increase the daily guild XP cap.
Oh, yeah, and bring the original Frosty back!!! :-)
Good job on taking back the Real ID/identity on forums deal... that is a good example how if something you come up with is just plain wrong you can easily correct it!
Well we had 2 nights aweek planned to run things together and had our guildies total of 92 members excited about earning some xp along with doing things as a guild but since they took this out it takes a large amount to the work as a team out and like has been stated now its just a stupid personal grind. Oh thats most likly the issuse the grind they did not have enuff stuff to grind on. Any how took the team out of team imo. I like the idea of a the cap and i thought this would have stopped the big guilds from grinding out to lvl 25. Iam happy with the cap but iam super disappointed in this. thanks blizz for saying be a team but we are not rewarding you getting together and do any thing as one.
Just to restate what im saying I thought that the daily cap was in place to keep this from happening. Guess i understood it all wrong so now guild ach's are just another way of bigger guilda to wave there e-peen around.
Well we already had achievements. So now we get to do them again together. Im sorry but thats not enough for most people.
Blizz may have well said "All guild will obtain guild perks every 3 days because we dont want people who work harder to get ahead"
Just want to point this out that the xp cap for guilds is intended to help small guilds. While large guilds will easily hit the cap every day smaller guilds might have to fight for that cap. Well... maybe. Me and one other person hit guild xp cap this morning in my guild with nobody else on.
I am also very disappointed in this decision with guild XP. We had plans and were excited for the new changes, it was one of the coolest things about this xpac ...there was a point to work together. This decision needs to be reconsidered, the people are NOT happy.
As a guild leader I am unsure how I feel about this. I think the cap definitely needs to be higher. I do see how letting larger guilds race to lvl 25 would ultimately impact how many players stay in smaller guilds. Why stay here and grind away when that guild already has everything buffed up. It would make larger guilds able to rush through end game faster. Witch they normally do anyways. I know this part doesn't matter to me as much, as I would rather stick to my medium size friendly guild over crazed RLs and strict rules. I am loving Cataclysm, I really want to do many of the guild achievements (witch seem to be turned off atm) I would love to see some kind of bonus for length of time the guild has been around. Would scaling the xp required per lvl to how many accounts are in the guild help? I think it would be a more accurate way of determining how active a guild is.
lets say a guild has 20 active accounts
so their xp for first lvl is 20000.
if there are 40 make it 40000.
also... if I am the GL why am I not exalted?
switch it back, Blizz lousy change.
This was advertised and even in the ingame manual it says we get guild exp for guild ach.
This seems really close to bait and switch as this was advertised and in the game manual in the box.
and Yes i can read the game play may change at anytime thing.
but an advertised and very talked about feature being removed in less than 24 hours thats uncalled for. I will be calling later today to complain to Blizzard and the BBB
Edited by Vankrunk on 12/8/2010 1:19 AM PST
80 Orc Hunter
It seems like this is an ongoing trend nowadays in games.. to 'balance' everything out so that the hard workers get penalized for putting more time into the game.. WoW isn't the only one to do this, but it disappoints me to see WoW join the club.
The "it's just a game, it shouldn't be hard work" attitude needn't be here, regardless of it being a game.. if I put 3 hours in it and you put 20 hours in it, no matter how unhealthy it is, you should still be leagues ahead of me.
Worse yet is that they did this last minute instead of properly developing and testing it at an earlier time. And even worse is that they took away the levels of some guilds on top of that, at the very least they should've just let those guilds keep their levels.
This doesn't affect me in the slightest, as I play maybe 2 hours a day at most due to schedule conflicts, but that doesn't mean the people who put in 12+ hours in it should be punished, let them have their hard earned glory if that's what they want to do.
I would like to be extending warm invitation to all mine comrades for USPON (United Socialist Party of Northrend.)
We believe that best philosophy is make everyone unhappy instead of few peoples unhappy. It works super good. Very professional. This be only way to make things most fair for all peoples. You will be forgetting what "happy" is being, dah? Happy is for crybabies. Blizzard, the most glorious of motherlands, is knowing what is best for you. Trust in Blizzard. Work. Give. Serve. Rewards be silly things for weak peoples. Work with no reward good for you like mama's borscht, harosho?
This is easily one of the more ridiculous things I've seen Blizzard pull. Who vets these ideas? Is your entire "think tank" (a term I am using loosely) comprised of broskies throwing darts at sticky notes with ideas on a wall? You've been in beta for quite a few months, and this BLINDSIDES you?
I suggest you go get an encyclopedia, look up the scientific method, and then learn to how to actually form an experiment that yields useful data. Setting artificial parameters with setting that you knew would never make it to live will give you data that would never be truly consistent with live.
Wow. Who would have that that if you put trash data into a model you get trash data at the end. Did Al Gore design your beta? I am literally flabbergasted that you have the gall to claim that you never saw this coming. This seriously shakes my confidence.
A much better, more obvious solution to your perceived problem was mentioned about 40 or 50 times so far; Reduce exp gained from achievements, and/or raise the exp required for level. People would have been much more pliable to these changes rather than some overreaction, which is what this is clearly.
So I'm still a little confused as to what exactly happened today. The guild I'm in hit the cap before I even got into the game at 12:30AM on day one, but did not earn any achievements before the change to get a bonus. After we hit cap today (at 1:30 AM), we will only be 76% through lvl 1.
Other guilds that I am associated with reached Lvl 2 yesterday and reported that they were taken back to to Lvl 1 and I assumed their XP was set to 6246 K (or possibly lower as some reported).
But now it is after the server day reset, we're into day 2 and other guilds I am associated with, that were not at Lvl 2 last night are at Lvl2 now. So this means that their XP at the start of today must have been above 6246.
So is it possible that guilds that were at Lvl2 (or higher) got clawed back, but guilds that were still at Lvl 1 but had received bonus points were left alone?
Or is there some other way to get points above the cap?
Also, can anyone, that was perhaps in beta, tell me if the leveling mechanic is similar to character leveling? Where more XP is required for each Lvl, and thus the cap may increase as you get higher?
If it takes more work to hit the cap at higher levels, then perhaps it's not quite as bad of a blunder.
As for my 2 cents, which assumes from what I can see on how things work, this feels like a mistake. When I hopped on yesterday and learned how the mechanic worked, I was quite excited about trying my best to get groups together to earn some of the achievements to help our guild move along. It was exciting and felt like a real incentive to do things as a guild.
In my case, we have a number of co-guilds and I'm sure some friendly rivalry would have spawned which would have been great.
Now I'm not so sure. Yes, we'll still do things together, but the incentive is not the same. Already today I was running dungeons and didn't give a whoot who it was with. Sure, getting a guild run through BRC would have gotten part of an achievement, but I know that'll happen at some point anyway. The only ones that "matter" now are the ones with a reward attached
If I know it would have gotten us XP, then it would have mattered.
If the cap is always 6246K, then it's like running a JC daily. You do the quest, get your token, do it again the next day and when you get enough you get something out of it. But it's not exciting, and it isn't hard. It just takes time.
As it looks now (depending on the cap question) I can't imagine us ever earning XP by running a dungeon, killing a boss or raiding because we'll have hit the cap before we get a group together.
Edited by Shundi on 12/8/2010 3:01 AM PST
What I find to be frustrating on top of everything else that has been said is that you and by you I mean you blizzard took my 80 plus dollars promising me a product and then within a very brief time frame less than 24 hrs decided to give me a subpar product instead. This was something that was going to bring back a little bit of excitement to the game since now you know everybody has to be given everything instead of working towards accomplishments. Much like the rest of life cant have somebody feeling inferior to somebody else even if those who are on top work hard to get there so lets just make everybody equal. This is absurd. What is our incentive now for working as a team there is none. You know when you go to the store and buy a product if you get home and it is broken you return it and get your money back. Well my game is broken it doesnt give guild xp for achievements as promised so can i have my money back?
Achievements, whether personal or guild, are supposed to be rewards in and of themselves. They are meant to mark certain accomplishments. They are not meant to be a means to an end. Blizzard intended for most of the guild achievements to be either something that "just happens", or as something interesting to do. They did not want there to be any pressure to complete them. When they rewarded guild XP, they strongly incentivized guilds to do them, to the point where if they weren't doing them as fast as possible, they were not competitive. They were the only way to get ahead of the curve, since the cap is so easily reached. The caps are there to provide some semblance of a level playing field between large and small guilds, though with the number and type of caps, it's gone overboard, limiting everyone to progressing at the exact same rate, rather than simply placing boundaries so that competition wasn't completely hopeless. I think the cap on number of contributors per day, but not on their individual contributions per day, would be sufficient.
A basic problem of game design is this: how do you reward, or even recognize, a behavior, without the reward becoming the purpose of engaging in the behavior, replacing the enjoyment of actually engaging in the behavior for its own sake? It's evident that most of the people commenting in this thread don't care about the achievements themselves, or the activities necessary to gain those achievements. They only care about the achievements inasmuch as it gives them some other tangible benefit. People are complaining that now there's no incentive to earn guild achievements, but under that logic, would there be any incentive to complete them when guild XP is useless, at guild level 25?
I agree that there's a problem with guilds all progressing at the same rate. The daily limit is too easily reached, the XP required per level is probably not high enough. They probably shouldn't have used a cap system. It's ok if smaller guilds fall behind, because they're usually small by choice, or quickly increase in size through recruiting. And new guilds are going to be behind, and having to compete with guilds that are already level 25. It's not really an issue, at least not any more than it was before, with any new guild competing with already established guilds.
I also agree that guilds should level by doing activities as a guild. Personal activities such as completing quests should not award guild XP. They should probably have made a list of repeatable activities that could be done as a guild that gave guild XP. In many cases, the activities that the guild achievements require would be good candidates for progression, but not all of them. They did not intend for people to be planning how they were going to knock out guild achievements as fast as possible, though they certainly should have anticipated it. They did not want people stockpiling resources to do achievements that are supposed to take months, if not years. They wanted it to be as fair a playing field at launch as possible. They just didn't think of an appropriate list of activities that guilds should participate in to advance.
Most of the people in this thread are acting as if the only guilds that matter are the ones the exist right now. Fundamentally, they did not design guild advancement or guild achievements solely for the purpose of a realm first achievement. They are intended to provide interesting activities with interesting rewards for years to come, for guilds that don't even exist yet as well as ones that have been around since the launch of classic. A guild isn't supposed to get from GL1 to GL25 in a week, any more than a character is. Guild leveling should have looked or worked more like character progression, or perhaps raid progression.
Non-raiding members, as well as non-raiding guilds, should have opportunities for advancement, and that's probably why questing gives guild XP. But that's not a guild activity. So there's a challenge for everyone in this thread: what other "guild activities" should there be that can be completed by non-raiders, and non-PvPers?
This is my question. People in my guild assumed it was a bug that allowed a guild to reach rank 2, as my guild maxed out early in the morning, like 4am at 1/2 way thru rank 1. A certain horde guild got all realm 1sts on my realm, and they all had the damn xp boost.
We had 20+ online at launch with over 16 lvling. We were lvling quite hard too, we never broke past 1/2 of rank 1. IDK how the hell you people did it honestly, I assumed it was a bug or exploit.
Can someone explain to me how people were reaching rank 2? We had 16 people online all day, with some elaving and coming back in, all lvling and we all hit the weekly limit in the 1st zone, not halfway thru. How were people getting extra points?
Because achievements wet over the daily limit.
Now they've taken that away from everyone.
They want every guild in the game to hit 25 on the exact same day.
As it stands, in a guild with 7 members on launch day actively, we hit cap waaay before the day was over. I imagine larger guilds did it even faster.
Without achievements, an active 3 man guild can hit cap daily.. np.
What do you mean by achievements? Like normal world achievements? They raised the rep too. Hmm, interesting.
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