The new Ret. play style is a mess.

12/08/2010 2:43 PMPosted by Fúry
If you top the meter everytime what are you complaining about? I'm so sorry you have a rotation

There is more to World of Warcraft than third-party addons that calculate damage.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
I can't believe i didn't notice how little fun i was having...thought it was just leveling boredom but the op is right. I miss being able to hit cs and ds in the same 2 second span. I hate holy power and i don't have a clue what i should do when everything procs...makes me sad
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
I'm still able to do good dps in 5 mans with my guild... was pretty much always top dps doing icc 11/12 H... my guildies know how to play their class always pulling 12k....

I dont find the spec much of a let down anymore... at first I hated it... but I learnt the knew rotation (4.0) and dl'ed an addon that tells you when you got 3 HP up. Saves me looking up at my char pane every second.
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90 Human Paladin
12/09/2010 4:28 PMPosted by Omedius
I can't believe i didn't notice how little fun i was having...thought it was just leveling boredom but the op is right. I miss being able to hit cs and ds in the same 2 second span. I hate holy power and i don't have a clue what i should do when everything procs...makes me sad

You have two things that can proc to give you free crap. Hand of Light and Art of War. If both proc at the same time use Art of War first. Problem solved. We okay now?

And as far as Divine Storm goes. Sure, it's a fun spell. Mostly because it looks cool. And although you can't use CS and DS at the same time anymore you can still spam tons of spells. You never have to just sit there and wait for something to come off CD. Especially if you have the proper amount of haste.
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100 Draenei Paladin

I agree, Ret is not fun at the moment it's just plain chaos.

So random, so RNG based and so absolutely chaotic.

I also despise Inquisition with a passion.

But there's nothing for it, I'm not giving up Ret.

Seriously considering making Prot my main spec now though.
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86 Blood Elf Paladin
I really dont like the new ret. FAR to much to do in fights. they need to like remove the CD from crusaider strike or something, or give us something that auto refreshes Inquisition, perhaps judgement.

Yeah i think that if judgement refreshed Inquisition to its maxium duration, i feel it would simplify alot of things. Would be like cut to the chase.

Lets compair it to slice and dice on a rogue, cos that is pretty much the same thing

3-7 seconds to build
lasts 45 seconds

10-12 seconds to build
lasts 30 seconds

In instances, I find I do pretty much always have a button to push, after the first 5-10 seconds anyway, so im not feeling that "waiting" factor that people are talking about. I mean if you added or lowered cds, when you pop wings you would have cut ablilities for hammer.

but yeah. Ret is very messy atm.
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You know, what's sad is, I think Cata looks so cool. SW just plain LOOKS like it needs the Holy Warriors to come in and save the day.... but the day before the enemy attacks the Commander decides to tell the holy warriors they must all fight lefthanded and insists his way is better.... Is fine if you're lefthanded...

Come on please Bizzard. I actually do want to play. But it's not fun anymore. This stinks. :P
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81 Tauren Druid
12/09/2010 9:26 AMPosted by Sorrowsong
i actually like inquisistion, its like a slice and dice or savage roar for paladins. and its not that hard to keep it up, you dont see rogues or druids *!!!@ing about using their 1-5 combo points to do it we onyl need three we got it pretty easy. only thing i havent enjoyed is my missing crit but eveything else is fun i was actually going to abandon my paladin because he was to easy but at least blizzard saved it much more entertaining now.

Actually I believe feral druids complained about savage roar pretty frequently. It's part of why the rotation was considered to be so brutal in wotlk. You miss one debuff/bleed/buff etc... and your DPS takes a huge hit.

I'm trying to figure out who my #2 character is going to be and my ret pally is on the list. However, due to the changes in play style I'm having trouble picking him over my enhancement shaman or DK.

I don't find rogues fun to play (never have) and they seem to have pushed ret pallys in that direction. Keep buffs up, build up combo points etc...

It's almost like they viewed rogues as their best design of a combat system and wanted to bring that to the rest of the classes.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
Ya do know that Pallies are pretty low on Blizz's list of classes to change, right? Yea, the rotation might be spastic and annoying occasionally, but the simple fact is, Pallies are actually doing relatively okay. Warriors are total garbage atm, Rogues have 1 viable spec for the most part, etc. Pallies are gonna have to sit there and suffer for a while. Every1 else is suffering quietly, why can't you?
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90 Draenei Paladin
I apologize for the length of this in advance.

As some of you may remember, a long time ago Ret in fact had a 'ramp-up', and damage significantly relied on RNG. We would cast Seal of the Crusader and then judge it on the target, for the benefit of increasing further holy damage done on that target for the duration of the judgement. Seal of Command (typically mocked as SoCasino) was then cast and re-cast after judging, as judgement consumed the Seal. This entire process was laborious and consumed GCD's (ie time) that made playing Ret significantly challenging to do competitive DPS with other classes. We were given the name Retnoobs and later lolrets as a result. But we persevered.

When Crusader Strike and later, Divine Storm came along, our mechanics changed slightly. We no longer had to stack spell damage and Crusader became a passive talent. Along with the fact that judgements no longer consumed the cast seal, our damage "plane" was simplified significantly and Ret became much easier and IMHO, more fun to play. The negative corrolary to this was that with the perceived benefit of "plate 'n healz", the Paladin population swelled, and garnered a great deal of attention, much of which was portrayed in the negative. Ret became viable in PvE and started to kill people in PvP with a ferocity previously reserved for others. No longer were we lolrets, we were labelled easy-mode facerollers, as if we the players had a lack of skill or some complicit blame for making the class what it was.

The reaction was significant enough, and included a number of devs with influence, that Ret was targeted for modification in the post 4.0.1 world. It was said a number of times that we were too 'bursty' and that we needed to be made more enjoyable to play, though I personally know of no one who suggested that Ret was not enjoyable. Objectively, I would have agreed that we needed "something" to make the avilability of our front-end burst slightly more involved. Remember, mana was rarely an issue for us, so in a resource-sense, we only had to worry about GCD/ability-cooldowns and their availability. While this was not unique to Ret, given the impact mentioned above, it flew above the proverbial radar and became a target.

And so we now come full circle, and then some. While mana is even less an issue now with the judgement effect, we find ourselves almost exclusively concerned with the new resource (HP), with an even more significant ramp-up and greater dependence on RNG to be competitive. I think the volume of posts about the unecessary extremity of the changes from the way we were pre-4.0.1 speaks for itself.

Personally, I think the question of Ret damage as being competitive/viable is debatable. At the same time, I think that question is somewhat irrelevant to the state of the class. The bottom line for me, is that Ret "feels" subjectively like it's gone from one extreme to too far in the other. It seems that in the attempt to find a balance for the spec, Blizzard has gone too far past the mark and rendered the class even less enjoyable to play than we were when we enchanted our weapons with spell damage.

With respect, I would suggest that the capable developers at Blizzard should re-examine Retribution, and devise a method of addressing the many concerns of its players. One early suggestion I might have would be to consider whether a re-charging concept of HP (analogously like Rogue energy for example), that decreases on use and recharges would lend itself to such a solution. IOW the Paladin starts with 3 HP, has some burst ability, but not a sustained model like pre-4.0.1, unless we "re-stock" HP ala the combo-point approach we now have.

Thanks for reading.
Edited by Lüther on 12/10/2010 6:46 AM PST
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85 Dwarf Paladin
Ya do know that Pallies are pretty low on Blizz's list of classes to change, right? Yea, the rotation might be spastic and annoying occasionally, but the simple fact is, Pallies are actually doing relatively okay. Warriors are total garbage atm, Rogues have 1 viable spec for the most part, etc. Pallies are gonna have to sit there and suffer for a while. Every1 else is suffering quietly, why can't you?

No brah, pallies have always been high priority for Bliz. In fact, the game practically revolves around us. All those pally jokes (in and out of game), lore involving paladin, raid bosses balanced around how much healing a pally could do (cuz pallies were the de facto tank healers), etc

Paladins are indeed the unique snowflakes of WoW at good times, and redheaded step childs when bad. We're just that special. Just because everybody else is mundane and boring, and are battered wives who just bend over and suffer, doesn't mean pallies should do the same

Pally pride people. Pally pride!
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
Did anyone listen to the blizzcast 15? I believe I heard they still don't know what "direction" they want the paladins to take.

Keep QQ'ing and they'll make changes, they always do!
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12/08/2010 3:12 PMPosted by Sedx
12/08/2010 3:09 PMPosted by Calsun
[quote="13055757961"]If you top the meter everytime what are you complaining about? I'm so sorry you have a rotation

this should read "If you were top of the meter everytime everyone else was doing it wrong"

This shouldn't read anything because it never should have been bothered being posted in the first place.[/quote]

This. Good Day.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12/08/2010 3:44 PMPosted by Mnejing
This is poor design and it goes back to poor beta testing (LOOK GUYS, I'M "TESTING" CATACLYSM!).

Sums it up. We have been released without them finishing the beta build. All the issues we have many of us have been pointing out for quite some time now.

Mastery for example, ever since they announced HoL we have told them that it is fun but it can never ever work. 3 months or so of beta and nothing. 3 days of live and GC notices our mastery is broken and decides it will be fixed in a future patch.

It shouldn't need fixing in a future patch. Ret should not have been released in its current state.
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85 Human Paladin
Well I have to bring more words to this post. Both favorable and not so favorable.

First of all, we ARE paladins and we DO get a lot of attention. So suck it up. As far as I can tell in both pvp and pve we STILL rock, albeit through a broken interface. I had taken the stance of "no horde ganking" in this update and have been "mostly" surprised by the lack of constant ganking from horde toons, but I can tell you that I have survived a number of really bad ganks that I prolly wouldnt have survived pre 4.0 earlier. (Minus a 84 warlock gank that was really impressive)

I love my paladin, and she rewards me everyday with a workout. Is it fun? Hell ya. The fact that I know I can handle pretty much much anything that comes my way has me feeling still very confident.

Things if I was blizzard I would change......

1) Continued QQ about inq. This HAS to be changed. I like the Judge / Refresh idea. Still makes it challenging yet not easy enough as to not be like giving it away
2) The interface sucks for us now. Head and Neck exercise so far is the only benefit! Minus addons this really is a mess. I don't like to use a ton of interface combat addons, but now have too as a necessity of playablity. Can imagine that 10 man raids between DBM and latest combat addons for CD's will have me NOT even seeing the fight anymore....disappointing as Blizz has done such a beautiful job with the new zones and instances.
3) The last thing I would do is move CS back down to 3 secs. This is just absurd that I am in fact waiting without stacking haste. WHY?! At this point shares same CD as Judge and is really annoying waiting and watching as the white swings hit.

So overall am I ok with most? YES. Am I still having loads of fun? YES. Has it been easily leveling? MOSTLY. I have been killed more, and I have used LoH to save my ASS a few times. But to me? I love that fact. I found myself saying outloud yesterday or the day before in DeepHolm....crap thhese guys are laying down stuff I should step in and found myself kiting the mobs a bit to avoid the "bad stuff" almost felt like I was in a Raid?! LOL

Anyway Blizz great job with the zones, great quests, just pallies need a some tweaking to make them fully enjoyable again......

Just my 2 cents
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85 Human Paladin
Just to add my voice, in case Blizz is watching this one...

I agree Inquisition feels terrible. It is not fun and is very difficult to monitor without an add-on. The procs/buffs/holy power are all over the screen and difficult to track. Watching the fight happen is a luxury I cannot afford. Using the new playstyle after the patch up until Cataclysm seemed great. Adding Inquisition was just the straw that broke the camels back.

I also feel very vulnerable to trash mobs while questing. I don't know how it compares to another class yet, but for a healing capable mana user it is tough to survive a four pull while leveling without a cooldown or lucky procs. I can only say that never in the previous 80 levels was leveling so precarious. The Holy Light after a kill is great, but is useless on a long fight. Example- I can survive indefinitely if small mobs die every so ofen in a huge pull, but a mob with just a few more HP will be my doom.

In addition, scaling on damage and healing as ret seems low. HUGE stat upgrades, but damage has not moved much from lv 80 it seems, presumably from drops in combat ratings. I know that the intent was to widen the gap between damage, healing, and health pools, I am just not sure that rets have the "numbers" right yet.

If Blizz can do just one thing... make Inquisition less cumbersome.
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90 Human Paladin
I'm not sure what you guys are @%#%%ing about. As for leveling, ret seems really easy. I just plug away at things and heal with WoG. I dont even bother using templar's verdict, as i find that a lot of the gear is providing an ass-ton of mastery. EVERY fight i get into i have AoW or mastery proc at least once, and i use HoW every fight to end it....I'm not sure why people are complaining.

Now, the name of the game is 85 raiding, or at least 85 in good gear so like i asked my guild 4.0 pre cata, why are all of you guys @%#%%ing about rotaitons and playstyle when we havent fleshed out the entire game and gear yet?

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