Need Clarification on Alpha Changes

90 Worgen Druid
10895
Can someone clarify how Genesis works on Alpha with the newly cited changes?

Currently on live, Genesis takes all rejuvenation spells active, and drastically compresses them on the people who have them for the cost of one rejuvenation.

The alpha changes I have read so far now remove the swift-rejuvenation so that rejuvenation is now subject to the standard 1 second global cooldown. That means you can only get so many rejuvenation spells out before the first one expires. In addition, it takes time in order to cast said spells.

Recent alpha changes also list that mushroom bloom is going away.

If Genesis works on alpha as it currently works on live, that means that you're taking a maximum of 12 seconds (if you timed everything PERFECTLY), to blanket 11 people with rejuvenation and accelerate the affect that costs you 12 x [rejuvenation mana cost].

+++++++++++++++++

I don't need a calculator to know that this, IF it is like live, will be HIDEOUSLY inefficient and ineffective. With curbs to healer mana, this will be absurdly expensive. In addition, it takes 12 seconds to implement, all the while other healers are casting their heals, and the tank is dying. The chances of your heals being sniped and having spent gross amounts of mana on essentially pure over-healing are high, even with a new emphasis on maintenance healing, rather than the spam healing of today.

On a more personal note, I do NOT like massive rejuvenation spam. It's boring. And it gives carpal tunnel. Druids right now are one of the few classes that feature a lot more selective targeting with their heals. That can be good and bad. With raid healing, it's bad simply because you can't get as many targets in the same period of time as say, a priest, shaman or paladin.

Please bring back mushroom bloom. On live, I don't use genesis much because even with lots of mana regeneration, it isn't at all efficient in terms of either mana or time. Bloom is efficient, but it is also a skill check on where to place it for maximum effectiveness, and when to make it bloom. I've saved the raid with it lots of times, simply by waiting for the right time to use it, and then letting it bloom (and some fights I don't have it bloom at all). It FEELS GOOD when that happens. Even if you're trying to clean up button bloat, this ability is very useful, requires skill, and encourages awareness and cooperation with the raid. With out it, we just have another healing rain, but green colored. Mushroom bloom brings a certain distinctiveness to the table.

Please, blizzard, consider time and mana efficiency when considering on-demand burst heals for raid healing. Genesis, if it is on alpha like it is on live and with the other proposed healing changes for WoD, will be far too inefficient and expensive to cast in any circumstance. You can put bloom on a longer cooldown, etc., but please consider keeping it since using it properly already required a decent level of skill, and without it, you're limiting or eliminating resto druids' ability to manage incoming damage at the same level of other healers.
Edited by Kyrsyii on 6/13/2014 5:49 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
9550
I use Bloom all the time, and I consider it burst healing. Even emergency burst healing sometimes. Genesis needs planning, and like you said, becomes much more inefficient with t he removal of Swift Rejuvenation.

I wish they'd pruned Genesis instead.
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100 Tauren Druid
9540
06/13/2014 05:47 PMPosted by Kyrsyii
Can someone clarify how Genesis works on Alpha with the newly cited changes?

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The change is in haste breakpoints. With no hastebreak points it had to be re-worded. It will work the same.

Bloom was superior. Clearly. Genesis is currently punishing in it's GCD investment, and only on mana if you really try to use it more than needed (to snipe other healers) But the GCD timesink is a real issue and will only be much further compounded by the loss of Swift Rejuvenation.

I'm more concerned about their stated changes to Wild mushroom being a 30s CD, lasting 30s, providing periodic healing to nearby allies and - by wording of the notes - No longer causes Efflorescence. WTF...did we just get a HST....Pathetic and uninspiring changes.
(Meaning just push it every x seconds and forget about it...at least I have to somewhat think about it's placement right now...)

All of the changes thus far make me think; Wild Growth better hit like a damn truck. Baseline, like a SotF'd WG. Every time. Otherwise, this class that's been bandaged together by cheap buffs (naturalist +10% flat buff, from HoF or Toes iirc) WM:Bloom and Perma Efflo will have some very serious problems.

PS, the note that bothered me the most;
They put a measely 1.5s cast time on various spells including Divine Star. Now they added a note, only for divine star; Can be cast on the move. ..... Wtf? What's the point of the bloody cast now.
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100 Draenei Shaman
20075
06/13/2014 05:47 PMPosted by Kyrsyii
Can someone clarify how Genesis works on Alpha with the newly cited changes?


The change is in haste breakpoints. With no hastebreak points it had to be re-worded. It will work the same.

Bloom was superior. Clearly. Genesis is currently punishing in it's GCD investment, and only on mana if you really try to use it more than needed (to snipe other healers) But the GCD timesink is a real issue and will only be much further compounded by the loss of Swift Rejuvenation.

I'm more concerned about their stated changes to Wild mushroom being a 30s CD, lasting 30s, providing periodic healing to nearby allies and - by wording of the notes - No longer causes Efflorescence. WTF...did we just get a HST....Pathetic and uninspiring changes.
(Meaning just push it every x seconds and forget about it...at least I have to somewhat think about it's placement right now...)

All of the changes thus far make me think; Wild Growth better hit like a damn truck. Baseline, like a SotF'd WG. Every time. Otherwise, this class that's been bandaged together by cheap buffs (naturalist +10% flat buff, from HoF or Toes iirc) WM:Bloom and Perma Efflo will have some very serious problems.

PS, the note that bothered me the most;
They put a measely 1.5s cast time on various spells including Divine Star. Now they added a note, only for divine star; Can be cast on the move. ..... Wtf? What's the point of the bloody cast now.


The only real penalty to Genesis is the GCD and mana cost of actually using Genesis. Fundamentally, it gives you the same healing per mana spent and same healing per GCD as letting all of the Rejuvs tick at normal speed. The extra GCD cost of reapplying Rejuvs that you are referring to is actually resulting in doing additional raw healing over and above what you would get if you just let them tick off. There is no actual loss in raw healing from Genesis

The fundamental issue is going to be whether the damage patterns make it make sense to burst all of your Rejuv healing out in 3 seconds or whether it makes sense to have the maximum total number of HoTs ticking at a slower rate. The reason why it's barely worth using on live is because the damage patterns don't fit it and because the accelerated healing most often becomes accelerated overheal. If the WoD damage patterns change that, it could very well be worth using again. You are just looking at it in the wrong way.

They just renamed Efflo, because they can just call the healing "Wild Mushroom" without creating any confusion, because it will be all that Wild Mushroom does; it's pretty clear that's all that change is. Wild Growth on Alpha has been tuned to be 500% the output and 500% the mana cost relative to live. It's apparently going to be something that isn't necessarily used on CD anymore, but that will hit for ridiculous amounts when you do use it.
Edited by Tiberria on 6/13/2014 7:12 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
14445
The standard GCD without Swift Rejuv is 1.5 seconds before Haste. That means that at 0 Haste you can cast cast one rejuv at time 0, an 8th rejuv at time 10.5 sec, and Genesis at time 12 sec, assuming you want to ignore WG, Mushroom and anything else for some reason.

06/13/2014 05:47 PMPosted by Kyrsyii
I don't need a calculator to know that this, IF it is like live, will be HIDEOUSLY inefficient and ineffective. With curbs to healer mana, this will be absurdly expensive

Alpha values are not final but, right now alpha has Rejuv at 10.5% base mana cost or 2.1% of your total mana due to Resto/Balance druids having a larger mana pool. That is cheaper than Healing Wave and its sister spells, which the devs want to be basically spammable in a pseudo "auto attack" way with our base regen being enough to recover for it. This would mean that Rejuv spam *should* be sustainable, much more than today.

Mechanic-wise, I don't like either Genesis nor Mushroom. Genesis because of the GCD investment, and Bloom because I've never been fond of overhealing compensation mechanics and because Efflo is tied to mushroom.

I'd rather wait and see how people in alpha feel about the recent changes before jumping to conclusions. Ideally, I'd expect WG to be a big bursty HoT and thus your main tool for when you need healing burst ASAP, with Genesis as a side buffer. Unfortunately, the way they worded today's blog makes it feel like Genesis is meant to be the big burst and WG likely put on a more buffering role.
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90 Worgen Druid
10895
I still might change healers even if that all is the case when it goes live. I HATED rejuv spam. It is boring as hell. And causes carpal tunnel. >_>

I actually like triage healing where you have to carefully select which spells are used and when due to mana concerns. It makes the game more interesting. If they're pushing druids towards rejuv spam, as that kind of negates a lot of it.

I will definitely miss mushroom as it is on live. Even when it wasn't full, it was still very useful if you knew how and when to detonate it. It always felt good to detonate after a wave of damage, such as right after iron stars or regular whirling corruption on Garrosh.
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100 Draenei Monk
12475
06/14/2014 03:53 PMPosted by Kyrsyii
I still might change healers even if that all is the case when it goes live. I HATED rejuv spam. It is boring as hell. And causes carpal tunnel. >_>


Honest question, based on the healing breakdown I see on most druids, aren't you already spamming rejuv? Or is it your 2nd/3rd heal from careful and strategic use?
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100 Tauren Druid
9275
Genesis could be great if used with the talent that allows you ot put 2 rejuvs on the target. I woudl still rather have WMB
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5 Human Warlock
0
06/14/2014 04:02 PMPosted by Synae
06/14/2014 03:53 PMPosted by Kyrsyii
I still might change healers even if that all is the case when it goes live. I HATED rejuv spam. It is boring as hell. And causes carpal tunnel. >_>


Honest question, based on the healing breakdown I see on most druids, aren't you already spamming rejuv? Or is it your 2nd/3rd heal from careful and strategic use?


Currently Rejuv is by far our most used spell but continuous Rejuv spam will run you oom, even at the highest level of gearing, so we do have a certain amount of down time. It looks like in WoD however we will be able to spam Rejuv all night long and since we will have a pretty limited repertoire (shroom bloom actually became a highly dynamic and interesting mechanic which I think the devs totally failed to see), Rejuv spam will become the norm, interspersed with LB, mastery maintenance and an occasional WG when enough players are damaged. Not particularly desirable but I believe it will give druids a huge advantage over other classes.
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100 Night Elf Druid
9600
I'm in the camp of much preferring to have Genesis pruned than WM: Bloom. :(

It's a punishing spell prior to mana superfluousness (overgearing of content) and feels very inefficient in terms of time spent vs. reward... it's always felt like a crappier version of Uplift.

I wonder how many people would Rejuv need to be on, to make using Genesis a benefit? Considering the loss of Swift Rejuv, and the duration of Rejuv, I can only see it being useful in small scale ways, like Rejuv 4 people then Genesis. Trying to place Rejuv on a large number of people in preparation for use of Genesis will be difficult at best, and the first to receive the Rejuv will always receive the short end of the burst heal stick. :( And then of course, we must Rejuv all those same people over again.

It just doesn't sound fun at all, and I can see the spell being largely ignored, as it is already. It's almost always better to let a hot tick out slowly than to consume then quickly, especially in a "not topping off" environment, as the devs claim WoD will be.

it does not, in any way, serve the same purpose as WM: Bloom, and the fact that devs believe it does concerns me quite a bit.
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100 Night Elf Druid
20570
I think the 2 main reasons they chose to cut WM: Bloom over Genesis are

1. Conceptually, Genesis fits the traditional Resto Druid niche better than WM: Bloom does. The Druid niche has always been spread healing and mobility, and WM: Bloom is a stacked AoE burst heal. It's something that would be more appropriate in a Shaman's toolkit. Genesis doesn't have any positional limitations, and links directly into the Resto Druid signature spell, so it makes a lot more conceptual sense than WM: Bloom does if they can only keep one.

2. WM: Bloom isn't going to work as well with the WoD healing model, and mechanics that reward overhealing are probably something they want to do away with. If they are actually successful in keeping health pools constantly fluctuating, and rarely at 100%, overhealing will be way and the mushroom will take forever to cap compared to on live. On live, 75% overheal in 25H raids is not that uncommon. If they are successful with the WoD model and that drops to 15%, it would take 5 times as long for WM: Bloom to charge as it does on live, making it a lot less reliable and a lot less of a loss than you think. On top of that, they functionally should get away from mechanics that reward overhealing in the new healing model, so that part of it probably also just didn't really fit.
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100 Night Elf Druid
9600
Yeah, fact that Genesis is a HoT burst treatment and ties into druidyness is great and all, but... It still doesn't FEEL good, in gameplay. It just doesn't. :(

I know that devs have ways to see the way players are using spells, whether they are being used in the intended ways, or not. I would love to see their data on Genesis. If you look at top parsing druids on Warcraftlogs, their casts of Genesis are... not high. Sometimes once per fight, usually it is not represented at all. You see it even less among 'average' players.

Perhaps that's because we have Bloom available, which is superior in basically all ways (since most fights in SoO offer at least some stacking). Maybe without Bloom we will need to use Genesis more, and p'raps that is the intent of the changes. But... I don't feel myself reaching for Genesis and Bloom in the same ways.

Unfortunately, Genesis still doesn't feel rewarding from a gameplay perspective, so I cannot say for sure that Genesis will have a consistent use in the average (or even excellent) players toolkit.

As an aside regarding HoTs and druidyness, it is sad and strange that they removed the HoT from Tranquility. :*(
Edited by Bunny on 6/16/2014 5:32 PM PDT
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100 Goblin Shaman
19930
There are two problems I find with genesis on my druid.

1) Damage patterns this tier don't really do this spell justice. But still, its pretty hard to imagine its going to get more use in WoD based on how they said they want healing to be.

2) R. Druid is nice but there are a lot of 'things' you have to do and so every global is so valuable. whether its SotF SM + WG or sage-mender HT/regrowth for lifebloom, switching lifeblooms, blooming a shroom etc, and rejuving the raid (which only last 12 sec), it is pretty hard at times to really squeeze genesis into many fights. As in, if you really wanted to use it even, you can't do it effectively because of the other things you have to be doing and what you have to give up.

Maybe increase the mana cost by a large amount, put it on a cd, but take the spell off the GCD? Not sure, but the present incarnation is just not that good.
Edited by Gardiff on 6/16/2014 5:51 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
9600
06/16/2014 05:47 PMPosted by Gardiff
its pretty hard to imagine its going to get more use in WoD based on how they said they want healing to be.


Exactly. If the aim is not to keep the raid topped off to 100%, and if, in fact, it will not be possible to do so, a slower ticking, longer lasting HoT will almost always be superior. :3
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100 Draenei Shaman
20075
06/16/2014 05:52 PMPosted by Bunny
06/16/2014 05:47 PMPosted by Gardiff
its pretty hard to imagine its going to get more use in WoD based on how they said they want healing to be.


Exactly. If the aim is not to keep the raid topped off to 100%, and if, in fact, it will not be possible to do so, a slower ticking, longer lasting HoT will almost always be superior. :3


Right, but under the WoD healing model, WM: Bloom wouldn't get much usage either, because the overheal just wouldn't be there.
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5 Human Warlock
0
If Rejuv OH is in the low teens, our HPS will be through the roof, which has all sorts of bad implications.
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90 Tauren Druid
12125
As far as our changes go I have a couple of wishes:

Like most people, I'd rather Bloom over Genesis, 100%. Imo what they could do to tone down current bloom is reduce the base heal, which at the moment is like 120k per person, it's ridiculous. Also I'd like to see our bloom just super-power the efflo effect for a couple of seconds. Let's face it though, having ~400k per person instant heal is super OP for it's cost, if we make it a powerful, short HoT then I think that'd be a nerf while keeping the spell highly useful as well as fitting well with the rest of our kit. This would also allow them to not have druids losing efflo for the period between blooming and the cd.

I also think the duration and cooldown of the mushroom should be halved to 15s, 30s is just far too long imo.

Edit: double haste scaling on rejuv is going to be super OP in later tiers as well.
Edited by Ohmandy on 6/16/2014 6:27 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
20075
06/16/2014 06:24 PMPosted by Merise
If Rejuv OH is in the low teens, our HPS will be through the roof, which has all sorts of bad implications.


Not really, because as long as that level of overheal is anticipated ahead of time, they will just build that assumption into the balancing of how much it heals for.
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5 Human Warlock
0
06/16/2014 06:30 PMPosted by Tiberria
06/16/2014 06:24 PMPosted by Merise
If Rejuv OH is in the low teens, our HPS will be through the roof, which has all sorts of bad implications.


Not really, because as long as that level of overheal is anticipated ahead of time, they will just build that assumption into the balancing of how much it heals for.


Which is a really bad outcome unless all encounters are designed with the same damage pattern. Otherwise you risk making druids ineffective in those encounters that actually require burst.
Edited by Merise on 6/16/2014 7:13 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
9540
06/16/2014 06:00 PMPosted by Tiberria
Right, but under the WoD healing model, WM: Bloom wouldn't get much usage either, because the overheal just wouldn't be there.


Think you're missing some folks point a bit here; Get rid of the overheal 'requirement' buff the base shroom heal to compensate. Though shroom shouldnt hit as hard as it does live, most Druids would rather have WM:B. Shoot, even without the overheal and the flat stock default bloom heal...

I do agree with you that Genesis is certainly more "druidly" and that stacked 'niche' should belong to a Rsham etc. (though imo this is a poor argument as I can point right at every Disc priest...which just got DS shifted to able to cast on the move, making that 1.5 cast time "nerf" irrelevant and non-existent)

My problem is that Genesis gameplay can be punishing and largely only rewarding at gear levels that trivialize content. It's cost is too high.

06/16/2014 06:30 PMPosted by Tiberria
Not really, because as long as that level of overheal is anticipated ahead of time, they will just build that assumption into the balancing of how much it heals for.


Disagree. Our toolkit is too stacked towards Rejuv. I don't see any new spells like Holy Nova coming our way. We will still be heavily reliant on Rejuv. By very nature this spell has to overheal a crap ton. They'd have to tune every fight extremely heavily on constant damage (H thok endless p1?) to make Rejuv not overheal much. Rejuv will still overheal a lot.
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