Missing Guild Perks?

90 Human Death Knight
12745
So looking over the current guild perks in Warlords Beta, it looks like several are missing, but the difference in levels between each seems off.

Warlords Guild Perks:
http://i.imgur.com/1H2u03H.jpg

I am concerned because some that are not shown are quite important to guilds currently like Cash Flow, which aids with guild repair.

Fast Track was helpful, but if leveling experience was re-tuned then I can understand.

Ride like the wind, with the change to flying, would have been nice to have
Working overtime was also a nice perk for leveling professions
Edited by Ceraphus on 6/29/2014 4:51 AM PDT
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I too am curious about this. Seems a bit off?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17715
I would like to know more about this.
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90 Human Death Knight
12745
Ion said the following regarding the missing perks on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/483279382581374976

So sounds like they are going to be baked in, just still wondering about cash flow, as I feel its critical for guild repairs, especially for more casual guilds who still raid
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90 Night Elf Druid
13670
06/29/2014 10:19 AMPosted by Ceraphus
Ion said the following regarding the missing perks on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/483279382581374976

So sounds like they are going to be baked in, just still wondering about cash flow, as I feel its critical for guild repairs, especially for more casual guilds who still raid
What do they mean by "baked in"? Either the guild has these perks or it doesn't.
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Game Designer
What you're seeing in the current build is a change that's mid-implementation. Since the introduction of the guild system in Cataclysm, the nature of guild leveling and guild perks has shifted from being a reward for dedication and collective effort, to effectively being a penalty and barrier to entry for new guilds. We've made it easier to level guilds over the years, allowing low-level quests to count fully towards guild experience, and removing weekly caps on progress. That helps ease the barriers, but it's more of a band-aid than a true solution to the underlying problem.

Our current plan for Warlords is to effectively remove guild leveling (you could also think of it as "all guilds are automatically level 25"). We originally came up with two dozen perks in order to offer something at every guild level, but without the continued need for that granularity, we can streamline the system a bit. Many perks can just be rolled into default behaviors, since a majority of players already had them and the world was designed and tuned around their existence: Flight path taxis can just inherently move 25% faster instead of requiring "Ride Like the Wind"; Honor rewards and item costs can be balanced as if you had "Honorable Mention"; and so forth. For most players, who are in max-level guilds, nothing should perceptibly change.

We still want to incentivize guild membership, aside from the social benefits, so we're keeping conveniences like faster mount speed, instant guild mail, Mass Resurrection, etc., as exclusive benefits to all guilded players. The guild achievement system, and unlocked items and other benefits through completion of guild achievements, will remain as-is. We'd like to emphasize that system a bit more as a yardstick for collective accomplishment, rather than guild level which primarily just reflects individual effort.

The Cash Flow perk is obviously popular, though in most guilds it actually contributes less gold to the guild bank than something like Guild Challenges, since it only applies to looted coins. However, it also fuels some degenerate player behavior: if you've made an alt lately, you've probably noticed that you can't go more than a minute or two without receiving a guild invite - typically from "leaders" who are looking to recruit armies of often-unwitting players to both level guilds for later sale, and to increase the amount of Cash Flow gold that is siphoned into coffers to which only they have access. It can be a meaningful amount of gold for one player's pockets, but for something like a raiding guild, Cash Flow gold barely makes a dent in something like total repair costs. We're removing the Cash Flow perk in Warlords.

We do recognize that it's essential for guilds to have ways of financing their costs, and we will offer alternative, and more lucrative, options for doing so in Warlords (for example, bringing back some Bind on Equip epic drops in raids).
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90 Draenei Warrior
11160
Uh... Watcher...

What about small-time family guilds who enjoyed the Cash Flow perk, who can't reliably (or can't at all) get things like Guild Challenges done?

Me and a family member share a guild of 2.

The Cash Flow perk gave us between 20-50g per week and we love it; it doesn't fully cover our repairs, but it makes the sting a lot less.

You're taking away 20-50g from us per week? I know that's not a huge amount, but it seems unfair to punish the small guilds (which is what this is doing), especially small family guilds.

It is bad enough that guilds *require* 3 people to get any dungeon/scenario/etc achievements whatsoever at all, but to assume everybody does guild challenges for money is not very fair for those solo guild and/or 2-person guilds out there who CAN'T do Guild Challenges.

I know, I know, you're going to say "Just invite someone."

.....I don't really want to invite someone, I have thousands and thousands of gold in the Guild Bank + LOTS of Materials. If I did invite someone to the guild, the Bank would have to be off-limits and I can't see very many people liking that.

That, and most people I meet and make friends with.... they play once or twice a week for a couple months and then I never hear from them again.

After spending as much effort as I have on my guild, I don't want to abandon it to join a guild of a bunch of nobodies, so...

Yes. I liked Cash Flow. It was nice.

I don't enjoy the idea of you taking it away from me and saying that Guild Challenges (something that is impossible for me) is supposed to replace it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18455
Unfortunately, Dharyna, Cash Flow is also extremely important to botters and exploiters and taking it away from them will hurt them severely.

I'm 100% in favor of this change as long as Blizzard can compensate with a mechanic less easily exploited.

06/29/2014 03:49 PMPosted by Dharyna
You're taking away 20-50g from us per week? I know that's not a huge amount, but it seems unfair to punish the small guilds (which is what this is doing), especially small family guilds.

If they can punish a massive amount of abusers and a very tiny amount of players (guilds with less than 3 active players?), then that is just unfortunate collateral damage. I mean, you're actually acting outside the role of the guild system by having a guild of less than 10 people (meaning the charter could never be legitimately signed), so you can't expect them to balance guilds around those kind of exceptions.

Perhaps they can add Guild Challenges for Scenarios as well, and put the reward at 100g or something. That would allow even 2-person guilds to make a bit of money each week.
Edited by Simca on 6/29/2014 4:02 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
21745
06/29/2014 03:49 PMPosted by Dharyna
Uh... Watcher...

What about small-time family guilds who enjoyed the Cash Flow perk, who can't reliably (or can't at all) get things like Guild Challenges done?

Me and a family member share a guild of 2.

The Cash Flow perk gave us between 20-50g per week and we love it; it doesn't fully cover our repairs, but it makes the sting a lot less.

You're taking away 20-50g from us per week? I know that's not a huge amount, but it seems unfair to punish the small guilds (which is what this is doing), especially small family guilds.

It is bad enough that guilds *require* 3 people to get any dungeon/scenario/etc achievements whatsoever at all, but to assume everybody does guild challenges for money is not very fair for those solo guild and/or 2-person guilds out there who CAN'T do Guild Challenges.

I know, I know, you're going to say "Just invite someone."

.....I don't really want to invite someone, I have thousands and thousands of gold in the Guild Bank + LOTS of Materials. If I did invite someone to the guild, the Bank would have to be off-limits and I can't see very many people liking that.

That, and most people I meet and make friends with.... they play once or twice a week for a couple months and then I never hear from them again.

After spending as much effort as I have on my guild, I don't want to abandon it to join a guild of a bunch of nobodies, so...

Yes. I liked Cash Flow. It was nice.

I don't enjoy the idea of you taking it away from me and saying that Guild Challenges (something that is impossible for me) is supposed to replace it.


...Queue up for a single heroic 5 man and make like 45 gold? Did you really write this giant post about 25-50 gold?

I hate wow players.
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90 Tauren Druid
18525
You mentioned Guild Challenges, but what will be their fate? We often enjoy cranking out some scenarios or dungeons as a group on the weekend to get gold for guild repairs.

Glad to hear raid BoE's are coming back, btw.
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90 Orc Hunter
0
What about the +Experience perks? Can you please keep those restricted to guilds?

I ask because I sometimes do level characters without heirlooms or other perks, and specifically avoid joining guild for that reason, in order to experience the questing experience on a deeper level than I ordinarily would. Even avoiding all of these perks, not doing bgs or dungeons, and not doing Pet Battles, and even avoiding logging out in inns, I still outlevel zones long before I actually complete their quest chain, and it adds up to it being most efficient to skipping a later zone entirely, or start spending gold to cap and uncap experience.

It's a small request, but I can't see any major downside. If someone wants the perk, it isn't hard to find (or make) a guild, and if they don't, they can do what I do and avoid them.
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90 Draenei Warrior
11160
...Queue up for a single heroic 5 man and make like 45 gold? Did you really write this giant post about 25-50 gold?

I hate wow players.


Money earned passively saves you time.

Yes, I could Queue up for a Scenario.....but yet I could Queue up for a Scenario AND still get the Cash Flow on top of that.

I'm still down that 25-50g either way.

They're removing Cash Flow because "Big guilds don't get much benefit" and "People try to invite players so that they can leech money off of their efforts" .... which does not apply to many small guilds like my own.

They're punishing us for something we're not even doing.

Here's a suggestion:

Instead of removing Cash Flow... make it so that you gain +10% of all money you loot automatically (instead of it going into the guild bank, it goes straight to the character who looted).

If you loot 10 silver off of a mob... you instead get 11 silver.

That way, it can't be exploited AND it would give incentive for players to WANT to be in a guild (the looted gold would add up over time).
Edited by Dharyna on 6/29/2014 4:08 PM PDT
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90 Troll Rogue
6880
06/29/2014 03:49 PMPosted by Dharyna
Uh... Watcher...

What about small-time family guilds who enjoyed the Cash Flow perk, who can't reliably (or can't at all) get things like Guild Challenges done?

Me and a family member share a guild of 2.

The Cash Flow perk gave us between 20-50g per week and we love it; it doesn't fully cover our repairs, but it makes the sting a lot less.

You're taking away 20-50g from us per week? I know that's not a huge amount, but it seems unfair to punish the small guilds (which is what this is doing), especially small family guilds.

It is bad enough that guilds *require* 3 people to get any dungeon/scenario/etc achievements whatsoever at all, but to assume everybody does guild challenges for money is not very fair for those solo guild and/or 2-person guilds out there who CAN'T do Guild Challenges.

I know, I know, you're going to say "Just invite someone."

.....I don't really want to invite someone, I have thousands and thousands of gold in the Guild Bank + LOTS of Materials. If I did invite someone to the guild, the Bank would have to be off-limits and I can't see very many people liking that.

That, and most people I meet and make friends with.... they play once or twice a week for a couple months and then I never hear from them again.

After spending as much effort as I have on my guild, I don't want to abandon it to join a guild of a bunch of nobodies, so...

Yes. I liked Cash Flow. It was nice.

I don't enjoy the idea of you taking it away from me and saying that Guild Challenges (something that is impossible for me) is supposed to replace it.


I think your situation is more of the outlier than the norm. Obviously, Blizzard can't make every single person happy, but they will try to make a wide swath of people happy.
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90 Draenei Priest
13450
We're a small to medium semi-casual raiding guild. Cash flow brings in about 3500-4500 a week (assuming of course that cash flow isn't lumping in the guild raid/dungeon/scenario completions). That covers our repairs and allows our guild to save up a bit for buying guild resources.

Perhaps the solution might be to restrict Cash Flow's activation player level to something in the mid 50's to 60's and/or require a certain amount of guild reputation to trigger.

There you would A) counter low level bot farms and B) not unduly impact legitimate use of it in guilds..
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90 Draenei Warrior
11160
I think your situation is more of the outlier than the norm. Obviously, Blizzard can't make every single person happy, but they will try to make a wide swath of people happy.


My suggestion above would make everybody happy:

Instead of putting the money in the Guild Bank, make the 10% of looted money go to the person who looted at the time of the looting.

Win-win for everybody.

Newbies joining a guild get +10% money looted from mobs (which can help a newbie over time), vets get the same bonus... and it can't be exploited.
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6 Troll Mage
0
Warlords is truly embracing it's role as the un-expansion. I feel like Blizzard should be paying us to take this Contraction Set (can't call it an Expansion Set any longer).
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90 Night Elf Druid
13670
I find it odd that they are making changes and then don't explain them until someone brings the change up. Is this the way the system is supposed to work?
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90 Undead Mage
15990
06/29/2014 04:25 PMPosted by Stellan
I find it odd that they are making changes and then don't explain them until someone brings the change up. Is this the way the system is supposed to work?


He said it wasn't even fully implemented yet, hell its technically not even implemented until its live. no reason to even mention it till its finished.
Edited by Delciotto on 6/29/2014 4:35 PM PDT
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06/29/2014 04:20 PMPosted by Tacobeef
Warlords is truly embracing it's role as the un-expansion. I feel like Blizzard should be paying us to take this Contraction Set (can't call it an Expansion Set any longer).


as much as i hate to kind of agree with a level 6 troll :-P

i feel like each expansion has "dumbed down" and "un-expanded" the game (if thats a thing) and this one is taking it another step that way sadly. (so far)

everything becomes baseline. talents are only every 15 levels. glyphs are blah. and the response is the same as above by the blue. "we can just put in mainstream" like okay..so youll make flight paths just faster because it was a benefit that people got used to? the only way it no longer becomes a perk is if you no longer make it one. And while i do agree that sometimes you made a spec the same way each time, sometimes you didnt or you did something different for pvp, and that felt unique.

i personally on my alts didnt mind joining a random guild. why? because i got the perks, it felt rewarding to get those perks added and sure cashflow put money in their coffers, but they also usually give repairs in return.

Gone are the ways of making a hybrid toon. Gone are the ways of feeling rewarded or accomplished.

I still keep playing because i still DO enjoy the game however theres always been changes that never agreed with me. That being said, youll never make EVERYONE happy. Let's see what this beta has to offer in the long run.
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90 Gnome Warlock
10050
06/29/2014 04:12 PMPosted by Morganlefae
Perhaps the solution might be to restrict Cash Flow's activation player level to something in the mid 50's to 60's and/or require a certain amount of guild reputation to trigger.


Considering how fast rep gains are for guilds, not to mention level 1-60, this wouldn't really deter botters.

06/29/2014 04:12 PMPosted by Morganlefae
assuming of course that cash flow isn't lumping in the guild raid/dungeon/scenario completions


I'm fairly sure it does include everything, Cash Flow and Challenges.

I don't see the removal of Cash Flow as a bad thing. Challenges bring in enough money for a raiding guild, and if you're just casual, you should be fine to pay your own repair costs - I only use my guild repairs if I've gone to a raid with my guild, and wiped. Otherwise, I pay for my own repairs.
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