To Fly or Not to Fly, that is the question 27

100 Undead Mage
8100
07/01/2014 10:07 AMPosted by Zarelian
07/01/2014 08:18 AMPosted by Killgraft
Completely off topic. Take it to the capital threads on the front page.


I was answering the OP's question, so sue me.


Just saying; the thread is about flight. Your post was about capitals. Take it to the capitals thread. ironically, this talk about what is off topic and what isnt is now becoming off topic, so I'm just gonna leave it alone from now on.
Edited by Killgraft on 7/1/2014 10:09 AM PDT
100 Goblin Shaman
9080
07/01/2014 08:18 AMPosted by Mvura
But are you…you … after you teleport? Or are you some weird material clone of yourself!?!?


I've seen The Fly entirely way too many times...this gave me a chuckle.
63 Draenei Paladin
525
06/29/2014 07:37 PMPosted by Prolific
does everyone crying about no flying in WOD remember there was no flying to start MOP?


Why do you idiots keep hammering that point? We all get that there will be no flying at the start. We are talking about no flying at level cap. We got to fly at 90, remember?
07/01/2014 12:52 AMPosted by Litlhelp
06/30/2014 10:38 PMPosted by Sayura
Or are you going to call Martin Luther King Jr. a child for rallying African Americans to protest against discrimination? Should those African Americans have had to just take it too?


So you are seriously comparing the very real fight for equal rights with flying in a video games.

So wrong for so many reasons.


No. It is right for all of the RIGHT reasons. It is a comparison. Moreover it is a VALID comparison.

If you wish to have the ability to draw a comparison of your choosing then you may not, let me repeat that in bold underline italics in all caps so you can see it, MAY NOT pass judgement on any other comparison that your opponent draws because the subject of the comparison (on either side of the comparator) is somehow "off limits" because it is some sacred cow that logic may not touch nor debate lay hands upon. In debate all comparisons are valid if the following are true of the test and the control: The SUBJECT of the test and the control are equatable, scale is preserved, and the results are similar.

While protest of Godwin's Law are fun they are seldom if ever correct. If someone is arguing a position that would be true of Hitler (Pharoh, Atilla the Hun, Charlemagne, etc) then Hitler(Pharoh, Atilla the Hun, Charlemagne) is (are) a valid (if trite and over used) comparison(s).

The Upshot is if you dont want others limiting YOUR analogy leave their analogy alone unless there is a flaw in the parameters of the comparison. Otherwise what you are doing is the textbook definition of trolling.
Edited by Narcissia on 7/1/2014 11:09 AM PDT
100 Night Elf Druid
17340
07/01/2014 10:06 AMPosted by Killgraft
07/01/2014 09:53 AMPosted by Narcissia


Here is the other problem that I see with those defending Blizzard's decision.

They come up with what they feel are iron clad defenses of Blizzard's decision. But as Rumpole of the Bailey remarked on numerous occasions: "My only issue with iron clad defenses are that they usually sink"

Which so far every reason given by blizzard or by the no fly crowd has shown to be that iron clad defense. It sank right to the bottom and lies there still.


Again, not quite sure of what you're trying to say here. That the anti-fly side believes there's no chance they're wrong?

Because I'll admit there's a darn good chance I could be wrong. If anything, I'd say much of the pro-flight side is the one who proclaims their opinions to be infallible and there is zero chance they could be mistaken about anything they're saying. I feel like you're crafting quite the strawman here.


Here's the thing, the logic people including blizzard are using to remove is well let's see what happens. The people saying it's a bad idea are coming from the perspective of we've seen no flying we know it's not a good idea.

No flying has been tried, it doesn't produce the results blizzard is claiming it will especially now that we're seeing more of the beta and seeing more and more that the reasons people like flying aren't being changed.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"
Edited by Ziryus on 7/1/2014 10:51 AM PDT
07/01/2014 05:57 AMPosted by Sufia
Pure Speculation File:
If Blizzard came to us and said the reason they don't know when or if players will be able to fly in Draenor is due to time and/or technical constraints on development resources then I'd respect that answer and try to tough it out.


I'd have to disagree here slightly. Would I respect the answer? Yes. Would I tough it out? No. What I would ask in reply is: Do you need more time or resources to develop it? If the answer to that is Yes, then by all means delay the expansion until you get it right. If the answer is No. Then I expect some development staff changes at headquarters.

The first answer implies a willingness to do as the customer wishes (even if it is delayed somewhat) the latter answer tells me that they arent willing to expend the effort needed to keep me (and by extrapolation those that feel similarly to me) as a customer (usually a company's top priority in furtherance of profit).
100 Undead Mage
8100
Yea Narcissia, I hear ya: If Martin Luther King was alive today, he'd totally be pro flight. Probably wouldnt even bother with equal rights anymore: This is obviously much more pressing.

Hitler? Anti-flight.

Therefore, anti-flight = literally Hitler.

Now, let's look at the holocaust: Obviously, this is very similar to the plight of the Jewish people here: Their being forced to be gassed and horrendously slaughtered by the millions: exactly what Blizzard is doing with people who want to fly. Is it worse? I suppose time will tell.

How about 9/11? Just like Al Queda surprised us by brutally murdering thousands of Americans, so too is Blizzard surprising us with this "no flight" debacle. Possibly worse, since at least those planes had the option of flying into those towers. Here, with no flight, we can't even do that.

Therefore, Anti Flight = Literally Osama Bin Laden. And we must invade Blizzard's HQ because it is obvious they are harboring weapons of mass destruction.

And don't even get me started on the Sandy Hook shootings, because I think we can all agree that Blizzard is exactly like the shooter there. That is, of course, if you believe the shooting even happened. I don't: Just like how The Government is lying about it to take our guns and freedom, so too is Blizzard lying to take our Flying Mounts.
Edited by Killgraft on 7/1/2014 10:59 AM PDT
100 Undead Rogue
6235
07/01/2014 09:53 AMPosted by Narcissia

"Article I Section Paragraph 4 states: "No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken." This was explicit and in 1913 was amended by congress and submitted for ratification and was ratified by enough of the state legislatures to pass the ratification process and gave the United States Congress the power to lay and collect income tax. Had Article I Section 9 Paragraph 4 Implied that no capitation or other direct tax be laid, the 16th amendment would never have been written as any such amendment would not have direct language to amend to begin with) and since the founders intent was to prevent BAD laws (unjust or corrupted of purpose laws or those with highly undesirable unintended consequences) from being enacted to begin with and they did so by limiting the powers that governments can wield, the DUTY to act fell to its rightful heirs. The People.
Nice read. Good to see someone else knows a few important things, but...

Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co., 240 US 1 (1916)
Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 US 103 (1916)
Peck v. Lowe 247 US 165 (1918)
Taft v. Bowers 278 US 470, 481 (1929)
and a few others all indicated the US Supreme Court ruling that the 16th Amendment changed nothing regarding the powers of taxation. They did not create any new powers whatsoever.

Regardless, William J. Benson wrote "The Law That Never Was" which effectively proves that the 16th Amendment was never propery ratified. Have fun.

07/01/2014 09:53 AMPosted by Narcissia
06/30/2014 11:07 PMPosted by Sayura
Likewise Blizzard's decision to disallow flying in current content can be defended by presenting a legitimate purpose to the change. Right now they haven't actually presented a purpose.


Here is the other problem that I see with those defending Blizzard's decision.

They come up with what they feel are iron clad defenses of Blizzard's decision. But as Rumpole of the Bailey remarked on numerous occasions: "My only issue with iron clad defenses are that they usually sink"

Which so far every reason given by blizzard or by the no fly crowd has shown to be that iron clad defense. It sank right to the bottom and lies there still.
Here, here.
100 Undead Mage
8100
07/01/2014 10:49 AMPosted by Ziryus
07/01/2014 10:06 AMPosted by Killgraft
...

Again, not quite sure of what you're trying to say here. That the anti-fly side believes there's no chance they're wrong?

Because I'll admit there's a darn good chance I could be wrong. If anything, I'd say much of the pro-flight side is the one who proclaims their opinions to be infallible and there is zero chance they could be mistaken about anything they're saying. I feel like you're crafting quite the strawman here.


Here's the thing, the logic people including blizzard are using to remove is well let's see what happens. The people saying it's a bad idea are coming from the perspective of we've seen no flying we know it's not a good idea.

No flying has been tried, it doesn't produce the results blizzard is claiming it will especially now that we're seeing more of the beta and seeing more and more that the reasons people like flying aren't being changed.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"


First off: That isnt the definition of insanity. It's just a cute buzzword quote.

Secondly, Draenor isnt Vanilla. This isnt trying to the same thing exactly again: It's returning a few elements of it, but changing many variables. That's not "exactly" the same. If I were to produce an experiment and part of it didnt work, I don't throw away every single part of it do a second experiment on the same subject. There are variables and constants.
100 Undead Rogue
6235
07/01/2014 10:58 AMPosted by Killgraft
Yea Narcissia, I hear ya: If Martin Luther King was alive today, he'd totally be pro flight. Probably wouldnt even bother with equal rights anymore: This is obviously much more pressing.

Hitler? Anti-flight.

Therefore, anti-flight = literally Hitler.

Now, let's look at the holocaust: Obviously, this is very similar to the plight of the Jewish people here: Their being forced to be gassed and horrendously slaughtered by the millions: exactly what Blizzard is doing with people who want to fly. Is it worse? I suppose time will tell.

How about 9/11? Just like Al Queda surprised us by brutally murdering thousands of Americans, so too is Blizzard surprising us with this "no flight" debacle. Possibly worse, since at least those planes had the option of flying into those towers. Here, with no flight, we can't even do that.

Therefore, Anti Flight = Literally Osama Bin Laden. And we must invade Blizzard's HQ because it is obvious they are harboring weapons of mass destruction.

And don't even get me started on the Sandy Hook shootings, because I think we can all agree that Blizzard is exactly like the shooter there. That is, of course, if you believe the shooting even happened. I don't: Just like how The Government is lying about it to take our guns and freedom, so too is Blizzard lying to take our Flying Mounts.
Were you born such a dirtbag, or did you have to work at it?
07/01/2014 08:18 AMPosted by Mvura
07/01/2014 08:01 AMPosted by Narcissia
...

Actually Juju...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10863929/Beam-me-up-Scotty-teleportation-could-become-reality.html...


But are you…you … after you teleport? Or are you some weird material clone of yourself!?!?


Worse than that. If all it is, is information, Is it murder or delayed emergence if your "pattern" is copied (thus destroying the original) and then not reconstituted on time? How about if its reconstituted twice?
100 Undead Mage
8100
07/01/2014 11:04 AMPosted by Aberzombie
Were you born such a dirtbag, or did you have to work at it?


I'm from New Jersey; It kinda just comes naturally.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9345
I'll give no flying a shot. It'll be nice to look up and around rather than look down or alt-tab in a general direction.
100 Goblin Mage
15430
07/01/2014 10:06 AMPosted by Killgraft
Again, not quite sure of what you're trying to say here. That the anti-fly side believes there's no chance they're wrong? Because I'll admit there's a darn good chance I could be wrong. If anything, I'd say much of the pro-flight side is the one who proclaims their opinions to be infallible and there is zero chance they could be mistaken about anything they're saying. I feel like you're crafting quite the strawman here.


While you are able to discuss that possibility, there have been many others that certainly would never admit they were wrong.
Even with the proof sitting right in thier faces.
Now on the off chance that the little poke at "opinions are infallable", was kinda aimed at me, I will give this:
The things I tested in game, aren't infallable. The numbers, quests, combat, locations, and levels cannot really be debated - those are hard line facts in the game. Clearly repeatable.
The only thing that could be a variance would be if you attempted to do the quests just after someone had possibly cleared the zone of monsters, skewing your results. I would only expect a +/- 3-5% in that deviation, due to respwan rates and such - well within the standard for measure.

The tests did one major thing in regards to the established blizzard response. It proved they are not being truthful in thier historic actions, and that flight really doesn't impact content the way they say it does.
What does this mean for WoD? I am finding out in the beta. I have three characters. One I am exclusively running with - no flight paths, one that I am riding with - no flight paths, and one that I am using things as normal. I am calculating the same things as before. Combat opportunities, how much on roads, hubs - etc, like before, execept I can't test flying. I am going to take those times and numbers and compare them to everything I have to this date and see how things are.

You once claimed that my findings provided nothing of information to you, which since I can't shove the results down your throat and demand you listen, is your choice.

~Pep~
100 Undead Rogue
6235
07/01/2014 11:04 AMPosted by Killgraft
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"


First off: That isnt the definition of insanity. It's just a cute buzzword quote.[/quote]Buzzword????LOLOL!
Yeah... like Albert Einstein was know for creating 'buzzwords'.... lol! Get an education.
07/01/2014 10:06 AMPosted by Killgraft
Again, not quite sure of what you're trying to say here. That the anti-fly side believes there's no chance they're wrong?


No that after being shown you are in fact wrong you continue to defend Blizzard's stated reasons as if you were not wrong and never in fact actually acknowledging you ARE wrong even when evidence exists that you are.
100 Undead Mage
8100
07/01/2014 11:07 AMPosted by Aberzombie
Buzzword????LOLOL!
Yeah... like Albert Einstein was know for creating 'buzzwords'.... lol! Get an education.


That quote was not from Albert Einstein. No one actually knows where the quote comes from. I may need to get a better education, but at least I don't mis-attribute quotes, or mislabel what the clinical, scientific definition of insanity is.
Edited by Killgraft on 7/1/2014 11:11 AM PDT
100 Undead Mage
8100
07/01/2014 11:06 AMPosted by Peppatrix
07/01/2014 10:06 AMPosted by Killgraft
Again, not quite sure of what you're trying to say here. That the anti-fly side believes there's no chance they're wrong? Because I'll admit there's a darn good chance I could be wrong. If anything, I'd say much of the pro-flight side is the one who proclaims their opinions to be infallible and there is zero chance they could be mistaken about anything they're saying. I feel like you're crafting quite the strawman here.


While you are able to discuss that possibility, there have been many others that certainly would never admit they were wrong.
Even with the proof sitting right in thier faces.
Now on the off chance that the little poke at "opinions are infallable", was kinda aimed at me, I will give this:
The things I tested in game, aren't infallable. The numbers, quests, combat, locations, and levels cannot really be debated - those are hard line facts in the game. Clearly repeatable.
The only thing that could be a variance would be if you attempted to do the quests just after someone had possibly cleared the zone of monsters, skewing your results. I would only expect a +/- 3-5% in that deviation, due to respwan rates and such - well within the standard for measure.

The tests did one major thing in regards to the established blizzard response. It proved they are not being truthful in thier historic actions, and that flight really doesn't impact content the way they say it does.
What does this mean for WoD? I am finding out in the beta. I have three characters. One I am exclusively running with - no flight paths, one that I am riding with - no flight paths, and one that I am using things as normal. I am calculating the same things as before. Combat opportunities, how much on roads, hubs - etc, like before, execept I can't test flying. I am going to take those times and numbers and compare them to everything I have to this date and see how things are.

You once claimed that my findings provided nothing of information to you, which since I can't shove the results down your throat and demand you listen, is your choice.

~Pep~


Not directed at you, but the pro-flight side as a whole. You could call that a gross generalization, and you'd be right.

I disregarded your findings because I don't believe they give anything of insight into the new expansion in any capacity. I listened: I just completely disagree.
100 Undead Mage
8100
07/01/2014 11:07 AMPosted by Narcissia
07/01/2014 10:06 AMPosted by Killgraft
Again, not quite sure of what you're trying to say here. That the anti-fly side believes there's no chance they're wrong?


No that after being shown you are in fact wrong you continue to defend Blizzard's stated reasons as if you were not wrong and never in fact actually acknowledging you ARE wrong even when evidence exists that you are.


I didn't know subjective opinions could be wrong. I suppose that my favorite color being purple could also be empirically wrong. Tell me, what is the best color?
Edited by Killgraft on 7/1/2014 11:16 AM PDT
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