The Feel of Retribution

97 Draenei Paladin
8510
Anyone else think the feeling of Retribution Paladins is off somewhat?

I'm really starting to feel this way, but none so much as after raiding a while with my TG Fury Warrior.

The realization came when, while playing my Fury Warrior, I realized that I am throwing down banners, using Rallying cry, using Vigilance on team members, etc. I'm not only pushing out a good bit of DPS, but really providing a utility to my team.

Now, to counter my own argument, I said to myself, "Aeremis, don't be silly. You've got Hands to Protect, to provide Salvation, and to Sacrifice for your teammates. You can Hand them the Light or speak Words of Glory to heal. You can bring a near dead teammate back to full vigor in emergencies. Your Devotion can cast an Aura to lessen the burden of healers and teammates when things are really bad, as well."

But... thinking on it some more... I only do these things when times and targets are planned or called. On my Warrior, I'm scanning the raid to see when I can give a boost here and there. I've even jumped in to Defensive Stance to help a fallen tank, willing to Die by the Sword if I have to.

And then it hit me. My warrior allows me TIME to do this. For half of the time, I'm hitting a few basic attacks to build up rage. The when Colossus Smash comes off cooldown, I open up and rip into the enemy with hard-hitting attacks for a few seconds. Then.. back to basic attacks and attention moved to other things. Over all, I'm doing damage about right where I should considering iLvl, (Both a tad low on my team, but still gearing)

Now... On this toon, my beloved Ret pally, I am over 50% haste and 50% mastery when buffed. My attacks are a ceaseless. Always an attack popping up to use. BUT... I have to monitor Holy Power, and keep up Inquisition. Don't want to waste Holy Power, but need to two extra for when Inquisition is about to come down. Gotta make sure Execution Sentence goes off at the right time while GoAK is up. Art of War proc... gotta use it. And everything is happening FAST! I've got bars and timers, auras and icons to show me everything that is going on and making sure timing at breakneck speeds is accurate. Also, this still doesn't put me at DPS levels near the warlocks, warriors, or hunters. Close... but I ain't winning any contests.

So... guess who barely gets time to check his own health.... At this point I just hit HoL when it procs. Hope it helped me. No time to check... Inquisition is about to go down, and AW just came back up.

Maybe it's just me, but doesn't it seem fury warriors should be more specialized toward constantly hammering on the opponent? Fast and critical seems like it should be their motto. Less time to think about the team. More time spent wickedly carving up their opponent, and defending themselves while in the thick of it.

I just feel like my Ret. Paladin should be wielding a large mace, landing slower but heavily damaging blows to the enemy. And then having time to scan his team and surroundings, and providing a bit of protection and succor where it is needed.

Wouldn't we be better off as Mastery/Crit? Make Fury Crit/Haste?

Does WoD alleviate any of this? I would just really appreciate a hybrid/utility class with some time for utility.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10800
Reading through how you play, I can tell you are doing some things incorrectly.

However, the gist of your post is that ret is too fast paced to use utility, correct? A lot of people love that about ret. One thing though - I know you aren't above 50% haste just by looking at your ilvl, 569 isn't enough to get there.

I would also tell you that if you are using your warrior cds (especially the banners and crys) without them being asked for, then you are most likely misusing them. Devo, unless you have multiple pally's, should always be planned for since it is a very stong cd. Sac is really your next best cd (bop is situtional like on thok, prisons on shamans, blades on siegecrafter). It typically should be saved for when the tank needs help, so it has non-planned usage (and planned like a tank solo soaking malk's cleave). But it also has the bonus, for ret only, of being a dispel, so there is that as well.

Tbh, it doesn't sound like you blow the meters up on either spec. It sounds like you should be pressing buttons faster on your warrior.

You won't beat warlocks, especially a good one. But at your ilvl, you should be competitive with every other spec. Crazy scaling doesn't become an issue until 575+.

Also, HoL is your mastery, FoL is your heal, LoH is your instant big heal.

Edit: And WoD doesn't have any big changes for us mechanically. The biggest change so far is the removal of Devo. So if you didn't like our utility now, then you probably won't like in WoD.
Edited by Maegoree on 7/29/2014 10:52 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree
569 isn't enough to get there

It is, if you actually focus on it.

However OP is most likely confused by AS buff.
Edited by Liminara on 7/29/2014 10:53 AM PDT
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91 Blood Elf Paladin
Two
18300
07/29/2014 10:18 AMPosted by Aeremis
And everything is happening FAST!

Best part about ret imo...

Yet another Want-Ret-To-Be-Warrior-Or-DK thread.
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100 Human Paladin
15275
07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree
I know you aren't above 50% haste just by looking at your ilvl, 569 isn't enough to get there.


If his Retribution gear is in the same state as his Prot gear (aka, god awful), then no, he's probably not quite there. I mean, he's barely above expertise soft cap in prot, at ilvl 562, with only 30% haste!

This unfortunately looks like your typical Male Draenei toon : poorly played.
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97 Draenei Paladin
8510
07/29/2014 10:52 AMPosted by Liminara
07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree
569 isn't enough to get there

It is, if you actually focus on it.

However OP is most likely confused by AS buff.


I said buffed in my original post. I should have specified, full raid buffed,

It's in the mid+ 40's unbuffed. Not super specialized, but still highest priority.

07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree
Reading through how you play, I can tell you are doing some things incorrectly.


Standards are subjective. I am not perfect. Nor do I intend to be. If I went that route, this game would lose much of the luster, and fun for me.

07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree
However, the gist of your post is that ret is too fast paced to use utility, correct? A lot of people love that about ret.


Which is fine. This is as much an opinion piece as anything. To me, I hear "Paladin", and I think of a warrior-healer. Lightning quick doesn't enter into my mind as a descriptor for the class name. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Ret play style... Just not as Ret. If that makes some small amount of sense.

07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree
I would also tell you that if you are using your warrior cds (especially the banners and crys) without them being asked for, then you are most likely misusing them. Devo, unless you have multiple pally's, should always be planned for since it is a very stong cd. Sac is really your next best cd (bop is situtional like on thok, prisons on shamans, blades on siegecrafter). It typically should be saved for when the tank needs help, so it has non-planned usage (and planned like a tank solo soaking malk's cleave). But it also has the bonus, for ret only, of being a dispel, so there is that as well.


For the most part, I use them when they are needed. After someone uses some-such ability, when we hit such-and-such phase. But I don't need to tunnel into DPS so much as to require a call-out to use it. Sometimes, I do use them when I see things are going south at an inappropriate moment. And I communicate this effectively.

07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree

Tbh, it doesn't sound like you blow the meters up on either spec. It sounds like you should be pressing buttons faster on your warrior.


I'll never even think to claim this. If I were, this game would probably feel more like work, and less like fun. As long as I am in the same range as the rest of the DPS on my team, I'm happy. 200+K on any DPS toon is fine with me. It's more of how I get there based on how I perceive the class that this is about.

07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree

Also, HoL is your mastery, FoL is your heal, LoH is your instant big heal.


Confusing... no? =D

07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree

Edit: And WoD doesn't have any big changes for us mechanically. The biggest change so far is the removal of Devo. So if you didn't like our utility now, then you probably won't like in WoD.


Somewhat sad... May have to just use him as a tank when needed.

07/29/2014 11:23 AMPosted by Berith

If his Retribution gear is in the same state as his Prot gear (aka, god awful), then no, he's probably not quite there. I mean, he's barely above expertise soft cap in prot, at ilvl 562, with only 30% haste!

This unfortunately looks like your typical Male Draenei toon : poorly played.


I only use this toon as third tank on Shamans. Other than that, my tank gear is pretty hit or miss. I never said I primary tank on it, and don't plan to this expansion.

NOTE: My gf was kind enough to switch me over to Ret spec and gear for those who only saw the Prot stuff.

Overall, it's not that I want Ret Paladins to be more like Warriors. Really, I'd have warriors be faster and less utility oriented, while Ret becomes the slower behemoth with utility outside of pure DPS. A lot of people don't like change though, and I get that. And it won't ever be likely to change, which is fine, too. I just felt the need to say my piece. =D

Cheers!
Edited by Aeremis on 7/29/2014 11:58 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
15275
07/29/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Aeremis
I said buffed in my original post. I should have specified, full raid buffed,


There is no melee Haste buff. You're confusing Attack Speed which does not grant Melee Haste but gets shown as such on your Character Sheet. You're at 43% Haste. Period.

07/29/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Aeremis
Standards are subjective. I am not perfect. Nor do I intend to be. If I went that route, this game would lose much of the luster, and fun for me.


Actually, they're not. Playing your Warrior and saying it's fun because you toss out your utility willy-nilly with no rhyme or reason, maybe to the detriment of your raid, and then say Paladins are bland because their utility needs to be planned out is objectively bad.

07/29/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Aeremis
For the most part, I use them when they are needed. After someone uses some-such ability, when we hit such-and-such phase. But I don't need to tunnel into DPS so much as to require a call-out to use it. Sometimes, I do use them when I see things are going south at an inappropriate moment. And I communicate this effectively.


Which is not a problem for Ret either. There is no need to "tunnel" as bad as you pretend to put out good numbers. Heck, I have no issue putting out Eternal Flames, Devotion Auras or Hand spells to my raid as a tank, when tanking, and needing my Active Mitigation to keep myself alive, no reason a Retribution Paladin can't interrupt his rotation for 1 or 2 seconds to pop a necessary ability.

07/29/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Aeremis
As long as I am in the same range as the rest of the DPS on my team, I'm happy. 200+K on any DPS toon is fine with me. It's more of how I get there based on how I perceive the class that this is about.


200k DPS on a 568 toon is abysmally low. You're hindering your team if anything.

07/29/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Aeremis
I only use this toon as third tank on Shamans. Other than that, my tank gear is pretty hit or miss.


Not a reason to not at least optimize your tank gear properly. You're a raider, be a bit more proud. Both my Retribution and Protection sets are highly finely tuned.

07/29/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Aeremis
while Ret becomes the slower behemoth with utility outside of pure DPS.


That's what Retribution was basically in Vanilla and TBC. The Seal/Judge system was very passive, with very low "button pushing" required and frankly... it was awful.
Edited by Berith on 7/29/2014 12:11 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10800
07/29/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Aeremis

I said buffed in my original post. I should have specified, full raid buffed,

It's in the mid+ 40's unbuffed. Not super specialized, but still highest priority.

[/quote]

AS does not equal haste. So when you get the attack speed buff, you haven't really increased your haste%. The tooltip in the char sheet is a dirty lie.

Just a couple general tips - don't worry about the art of war procs. Exo is last in priority, so art of war is only really useful if CS and J are on cd and exo wouldn't have been off cd (so rarely). Next, don't delay ES to line up with GoAK. General rule of thumb is to never delay ES by more than 7s. In a perfect world, ES will always line up with your gala trink str proc. Use exp+haste/mastery gems in red slots to get to the exp cap. This will allow you to not reforge into as much exp, meaning you will be reforging into secondary stats. This is beneficial because at your ilvl 2 of any seconday stat is worth more than 1 str.

Finally, do whatever it takes to get our t16 4pc bonus! Even if it means replacing higher ilvl pieces with lfr pieces. Then you really won't need to worry about art of war procs or have as many empty globals for utility.

I know you didn't ask for the above advice, just thought I'd throw it out there if you wanted it :).

Btw, the reason we love haste - Sanctity of Battle. As long as we have it haste will be king for us. It'll be interesting if what warriors are getting (that copies SoB), will make haste>crit for them.
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100 Human Paladin
13905
TIL Ret Paladins will defend there spec to the death over helping out a fellow Ret Paladin.

Truly revolting.
Edited by Divium on 7/29/2014 12:59 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
15275
07/29/2014 12:53 PMPosted by Aeremis
Why did this post even get around to my gear?

I never once asked for advice on how to gear my toon.

Not once.

Everyone else brought up my gear. I said, "Hey, doesn't Ret feel awkward for a Holy Warrior type class/spec?"


Err... because your gear is indicative of your knowledge of the class and spec ? And your knowledge of the class/spec can influence (for good or bad) your outlook on said class/spec ? Basically, what we're trying to get at is that you may not be playing Retribution properly and thus you might not have a proper view of it. As such, your opinion is based on wrong information and is thus... well.. wrong.

The answer to your question is "No, Ret doesn't feel awkward for a Holy warrior type class/spec". I think that should be obvious from our responses here.

07/29/2014 12:58 PMPosted by Divium
TIL Ret Paladins will defend there spec to the death over helping out a fellow Ret Paladin.


Pretty sure the OP has gotten tons of advice given to him in this thread. So really, I would change your post to this :

TIL Ret Paladins will defend there spec to the death BY helping out a fellow Ret Paladin.


One little word, a world of difference.
Edited by Berith on 7/29/2014 1:08 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Paladin
19360
07/29/2014 12:53 PMPosted by Aeremis
Other people said, "You play bad. And your gear sucks. This is how you should play."


It's the Paladin forums, certain posters around here are like that, taking any opportunity to belittle or insult others while propping up their own "skill". I guess it helps with their ego, you learn to ignore them if you hang out around here long enough. No reason to let it bother you.

As to your original post as a Ret Paladin you make time for your utility. You have to get to a point where you're comfortable managing your rotation while at the same time keeping a lookout on the raid for where and when your utility may be needed. That's all there is to it really.

Some of your utility will be planned and called for because it's very potent but there's still plenty of room for player discretion as well.

I like the pace of Retribution, I personally just don't get the same problem with the feel you seem to be having.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 7/29/2014 1:11 PM PDT
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97 Draenei Paladin
8510
Okay... so, current Ret pally players don't feel the the same. Cool.

As far as playing it properly, it has been said that it plays fast. I, personally, think it plays a bit too fast sometimes, but I'm old and slow, so there is that. Either way, I don't think I'll change my mind about the idea of it playing slower, but for now I'll deal.

As far as knowledge goes, I know enough to get by. Anymore learning and people would have to pay me to play this game.

07/29/2014 01:09 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
As to your original post as a Ret Paladin you make time for your utility. You have to get to a point where you're comfortable managing your rotation while at the same time keeping a lookout on the raid for where and when your utility may be needed. That's all there is to it really.


I actually think the pace of Ret is part of why I'm so comfortable at managing my warriors rotation while still providing utility. I've been playing Ret for most of this expansion, and part of Cata, and still don't feel comfortable managing my rotation. Even with helpful add-ons and such. But again... I AM old and slow. ;)
Edited by Aeremis on 7/29/2014 1:25 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
Warrior feels like you have a lot of time to look at other things and use your utility because the design of fury is pretty damn awful. 14 seconds of cruise control and 6 seconds of real dps is awful.

Having a near-GCD capped rotation like a high haste ret doesn't mean you have no time to do it, and it absolutely does not mean you have no time to even do something so simple as look at your health bar. If you're struggling to do that, you are spending way too much time staring at your abilities rather than what's going on in the raid. You should barely even look at your bars. If you're having to basically stare at them and can't spare attention for other things you're sort of struggling to play, and won't be playing very well.

Try playing your warrior as arms. Or enhance, if you have a shaman.
Edited by Cayse on 7/29/2014 1:34 PM PDT
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97 Draenei Paladin
8510
07/29/2014 01:27 PMPosted by Cayse
Warrior feels like you have a lot of time to look at other things and use your utility because the design of fury is pretty damn awful. 14 seconds of cruise control and 6 seconds of real dps is awful.


Um... I LIKE that style actually. Maybe it's just personal taste. Admittedly there are a few things to do in the down time, but it gives time to reassess the situation, provide utility, and get ready for the next big assault.

Ah well... Maybe I should stay with my warrior..
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100 Human Paladin
15275
07/29/2014 01:09 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
taking any opportunity to belittle or insult others while propping up their own "skill". I guess it helps with their ego


Insults everyone pointing flaws in the OP's knowledge of the class...

07/29/2014 01:09 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
As to your original post as a Ret Paladin you make time for your utility


Ends up saying the same thing everyone else did.

You also need help with your ego there ?

07/29/2014 01:34 PMPosted by Aeremis
Um... I LIKE that style actually. Maybe it's just personal taste. Admittedly there are a few things to do in the down time, but it gives time to reassess the situation, provide utility, and get ready for the next big assault.

Ah well... Maybe I should stay with my warrior..


Maybe ? Different classes cater to different people. You like the slow pace of Warriors, then by all means, play warriors. It will just rub off wrong on people if you come here and ask them to agree with you that Paladins should be played like Warriors. We don't want to play Warriors, hence why we play Paladins in the first place.
Edited by Berith on 7/29/2014 1:37 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
Most melee specs don't have that though. Rogues and WWs wait on energy at low gear but they really outgear that. Arms doesn't have it unless you horribly mismanage your rage, enhance basically doesn't ever because even at low haste if you get to a spot where you have "nothing" to hit, you hard cast lightning bolt.

With ret, the higher your gear gets the more likely you never really have an empty GCD. You use more DS procs, have exo sitting off CD more often.

When you want to use your utility, yes it means you don't push a dps button that GCD... but our GCDs are way shorter than most of the warrior GCDs.
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100 Draenei Paladin
19360
07/29/2014 01:20 PMPosted by Aeremis
Anymore learning and people would have to pay me to play this game.


That's not exactly a great attitude to have for a raider honestly. You should always be willing to learn and improve yourself.

07/29/2014 01:35 PMPosted by Berith
Insults everyone


Pointing out the obvious isn't an insult, it's just telling the truth.

07/29/2014 11:23 AMPosted by Berith
This unfortunately looks like your typical Male Draenei toon : poorly played.


This is how you started out your "helpful advice" Berith. The fact that you don't see any problem in the way you post speaks volumns.

It's been glaringly obvious ever since you made that thread calling out a random player for playing badly while touting your own skills that you're only around this forum for one thing.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 7/29/2014 1:59 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10800
Aeremis, our fast-paced playstyle is really the substance of what a lot of rets complain about their utility. In t16, we are nearly gcd capped since we get quite a few free DS's because of the 4p bonus. This means that in order to use utility you have to sacrifice hp generation since when you need to use it never really lines up with an open gcd.

The other thing our utility requires is a lot of attention to the raid frames. Offhealing (and I absolutely hate that offhealing is considered our utility), and not wasting it, means keeping one eye on the raid frames, one eye on the ground (so you aren't the one taking unnecessary damage and needing that offhealing), all while maintaining your rotation.

If you feel that everything is happening too fast, you really need to make sure you have all this information in easily accessible places. I use IceHUD so I can have a health bar in the middle of my screen (and I like their hp tracker too). I use extraCD to show cd on trinkets. I use clcret to show when things are off cd and to help me get back in the groove of my rotation if I get flustered, however, it's best not to zone in on clcret and it isn't always going to provide optimal usage (or use weak auras so you can organize your dps abilities in a visible spot so you can see when they come off cd). You may already do these things, if so, great. If not I would highly suggest it.

But yes, you do strike the nerve that a lot of rets don't like about our utility - that so much of it is ST we lose dps using it. And by losing Devo in WoD, we are losing our easy utility (or hit it and forget it ability), meaning to justify bringing us, we have to excel in using our ST utility.
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100 Human Paladin
15275
07/29/2014 01:53 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
This is how you started out your "helpful advice" Berith. The fact that you don't see any problem in the way you post speaks volumns.


See, you misquote me, my first point was this :

07/29/2014 11:23 AMPosted by Berith
I mean, he's barely above expertise soft cap in prot, at ilvl 562, with only 30% haste!


So right there, pointing out the flaws he needs to fix in his prot gear.

07/29/2014 01:53 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
It's been glaringly obvious ever since you made that thread calling out a random player for playing badly while touting your own skills that you're only around this forum for one thing.


Still butthurt about that ? My god, hold a grudge much ? You still don't get it that I was again simply pointing out the confusion caused by Blizzard with our broken loot tables ? After all my posts trying to point it out..

Being bitter like you are, you have no room to call others out on their attitude. You have a problem with your own.

If you think I'm here to "tout my skill", then frankly you haven't been reading many of my posts. I guess I never helped anyone here. At all. Ever. Seriously, get over yourself, I probably post more advice than you do. It seems you post to attack others on their "Attitude" all the time.

Oh, btw, I'm going to have poor attitude since you accuse me of it anyway, read this post if you want even more material about me :

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13595539909?page=3#43

I mean, pointing out others and how it's wrong to accuse people of failing to read stuff when they can't read is obviously poor attitude! Even if you point them to information!
Edited by Berith on 7/29/2014 2:16 PM PDT
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