The Feel of Retribution

07/29/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Maegoree

I would also tell you that if you are using your warrior cds (especially the banners and crys) without them being asked for, then you are most likely misusing them.

Especially as Demoralising Banner is, in its own way as strong as Devo Aura, likewise Rallying Cry, and Vigilance is stronger than Hand of Sacrifice.

Edit: And WoD doesn't have any big changes for us mechanically. The biggest change so far is the removal of Devo. So if you didn't like our utility now, then you probably won't like in WoD.

There is the issue that we're very nearly GCD locked (and haste doesn't affect that much - it's an innate feature of the DPS cycle), and thus our utility costs DPS, even if one ignores WoG. That's not ideal in a spec that is very average in DPS.
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100 Human Paladin
15410
07/30/2014 06:50 AMPosted by Sharrow
That's not ideal in a spec that is very average in DPS.


Number tuning is supposed to "fix" that. Blizzard is aware of our DPS woes right now.
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07/29/2014 08:41 PMPosted by Cayse
No edged weapons was always a hilarious thing in D&D.

Gygax thinks that it's better for paladins to cause their enemies great suffering and lifelong debilitation than actual dying quickly.
Paladins were allowed swords, etc. (but not poisons or any of that bad stuff). Clerics were only allowed blunt weapons.
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07/29/2014 09:09 PMPosted by Berith

You're thinking of the Knight unit. Frankly, never really got into the whole "2 handed hammer" Knights and Paladins of the Warcraft II thing. Just really doesn't feel like what Knights in usual fantasy settings are. It's more akin to Conan the Barbarian than to what Paladins usually are.

Barbarians used spears, swords if they could afford them - they generally fought fairly lightly armoured or unarmoured opponents. Late medieval knights and foot-soldiers facing them were the main users of massive two-handed weapons, because that what it takes to get through a full plate harness. Massive axes, mauls, and hammers are the weapons of the plate-armoured knight, not the unarmoured barbarian.

And the way they've portrayed Paladins as basically Clerics for a long time (a lot of us old timer AD&D guys remember the Cleric, the plated priest that couldn't use edged weapons because of his faith, didn't get multiple attacks per turn, and was basically gimped melee with crappier spells than a Magic-User, and none of us really liked the class) is a sore point for a lot of Vanilla/TBC players.

Oh, no. They had more spells than a Magic User, didn't have to learn them, could cast in armour, and their spells were at least as good when faced with humanoids. It was only when you needed mass AoE or when faced with non-humanoids that MUs' spells were clearly superior. Also, as fighters in AD&D1 didn't get multiple attacks until level 7+, the lack didn't matter for most characters.


But most of us Paladins don't associate with that. We think it's awful. Long live the Holy Avenger +5.

But remember that Paladins in AD&D were gimped fighters who got some nice immunities in exchange and some (very) poor spell casting. The real munckins played Rangers.
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100 Draenei Paladin
8510
07/29/2014 04:47 PMPosted by Berith
07/29/2014 04:21 PMPosted by Galuda
Retribution paladins probably SHOULD hit harder and less frequently


When I see something like that, Paladin is far from my mind. I see Barbarian.

Heck, I still believe Paladins should be able to Dual Wield, or do Shield/Sword DPS, not use 2 handers.


I completely understand your viewpoints here. And am starting to understand that this Blizzard lumps Barbarian and warrior into the same category. In my D&D days, my fighters were always dual wielding weapon masters, with high Dex and many attacks. Of course they were also often in some type of leather too. If only combat rogues were more spec-ed to combat and weapons and less rogue-ish things.

As far as a sword/Shield DPS style, that would be !@#$ing AMAZING! And perfect for Retribution paladins. Maybe give them an easier time acting as a reserve tank in case one of the mains goes down. That would be an awesome utility on its own.

As for the barbarian concept, I've always thought BM Hunters should be melee and not ranged. You know... Like the original Beastmaster. Enhancement shaman also feels more like a barbarian type class as well.

Too bad they can't give class/specs a style. Something that gives the spec/class combinations some extra flavor, possibly changing what armor types they wear as well. Give the Paladin class 3 styles (Inquisitor/Crusader/Avenger) and have that effect how each spec works. Say Inquisitors wear cloth or leather and work off of AGI in DPS/Tanking as opposed to just STR. They dual wield as tanks, are ranged as Ret (crossbows), and carry staves as Holy. Crusaders wear mail and carry sword and shield in any spec. Avengers are the plate wearing 2H monsters using 2H weapons in any spec (DKs can tank without a shield... We've got the light on our side at least.)

Anyhow... wish list off cool stuff (in my mind). It'll never happen. But it is fun to dream. :)
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07/30/2014 07:14 AMPosted by Aeremis

As far as a sword/Shield DPS style, that would be !@#$ing AMAZING! And perfect for Retribution paladins.

That's why warriors are getting it.
Maybe give them an easier time acting as a reserve tank in case one of the mains goes down. That would be an awesome utility on its own.

Light knows we could use it. With no 'tanking' stance/presence/form Rets are by far the worst emergency tank of the plate melee (and worse than druids, too).

That said, I'd like for it to be an option (as it will be for warriors), because while I really wanted to be sword-n-board DPS when I first started playing WoW, the Ret with the big 2-hander grew on me, and now I wouldn't want it any other way.
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100 Human Paladin
15410
07/30/2014 07:09 AMPosted by Sharrow
But remember that Paladins in AD&D were gimped fighters who got some nice immunities in exchange and some (very) poor spell casting. The real munckins played Rangers.


Paladins in AD&D 2nd were Fighters with extra abilities. Unless you mean we had to "gimp" ourselves to reach 17 Charisma points. My DM wasn't that dumb and we used the 12d6 method with 8 base to make our characters.

Paladins in AD&D 2nd had all the benefits of the Fighter, the only drawback being the extra experience required per level.

Rangers sucked in 2nd. 1st had much better mechanics.

07/30/2014 07:20 AMPosted by Sharrow
the Ret with the big 2-hander grew on me, and now I wouldn't want it any other way.


2-hander/Board DPS ? Wait no, give that to Protection Paladins.
Edited by Berith on 7/30/2014 8:04 AM PDT
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07/30/2014 08:03 AMPosted by Berith

Paladins in AD&D 2nd were Fighters with extra abilities. Unless you mean we had to "gimp" ourselves to reach 17 Charisma points. My DM wasn't that dumb and we used the 12d6 method with 8 base to make our characters.

Thus removing one of the balancing mechanics. Oh, and strict reading of the rules said that only single classed fighters could get weapon specialisation. As Rangers and Paladins were 'warriors' (as were fighters) they could not get it.

That said, it's possible that later printings of the AD&D2 PHB changed that - we found a number of never-mentioned changes between the early printings and later ones. For example, at one point the rules said that thieves added all the bonuses to damage to their weapon's damage roll and then multiplied the whole lot by their backstab multiplier. Other printings said they only multiplied the basic weapon damage, and then added the bonuses. The former was much kinder to fighter/thief multiclass characters.

Rangers sucked in 2nd. 1st had much better mechanics.
And that's what I thought you were talking about, to start with. Yes, without the brown splat books rangers in 2nd were a bit naff. With them they were over-powered due to excessive bonuses to their 2-weapon fighting (that's where it all started).
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100 Human Paladin
15410
07/30/2014 08:09 AMPosted by Sharrow
Thus removing one of the balancing mechanics.


The balancing mechanic in AD&D 2nd was always experience since campaigns at cap (if your DM even enforced level 20 cap) were a rare thing. So while your Fighers would be level 9, your Paladin might still be early 8 or even still 7.

My PHB allowed Weapon Specializations for all Warrior sub-classes IIRC. We were pretty strict, yet I had Weapon specialization. The 8 base 12d6 method was one suggested in the PHB btw to allow players to play what they wanted, which made for a better RP experience (I mean, the guy stuck playing Cleric always cried).

As an aside, I think what Forgotten Realms 2nd extras did was nice for Clerics, with the way the deities worked. A lot of them did allow edged weapon usage, and some had some cool iconic things (Black/White gauntlets for Clerics of Tyr, with a white, transparent bandage over the eyes).

But I still overall preferred Dragonlance. If your DM wasn't a jerk and allowed you to progress to Knight of the Rose, you got access to level 7 Cleric spells while remaining a Warrior sub-class, albeit with a very steep experience curve.
Edited by Berith on 7/30/2014 8:25 AM PDT
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07/30/2014 08:20 AMPosted by Berith

But I still overall preferred Dragonlance. If your DM wasn't a jerk and allowed you to progress to Knight of the Rose, you got access to level 7 Cleric spells while remaining a Warrior sub-class, albeit with a very steep experience curve.
The DL Knights had those quests to do to, which made for some nice RP, etc. As I recall they were effectively fighters, then clerics, and finally paladins.
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100 Draenei Paladin
10770
07/30/2014 06:36 AMPosted by Berith
You're really really confused if talking about Warcraft II : Tides of Darkness here and there's no point in continuing any discussion with you until you get informed.
I was referring to WC3, the last game made before the MMO.
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100 Human Paladin
15410
07/30/2014 08:34 AMPosted by Sharrow
07/30/2014 08:20 AMPosted by Berith

But I still overall preferred Dragonlance. If your DM wasn't a jerk and allowed you to progress to Knight of the Rose, you got access to level 7 Cleric spells while remaining a Warrior sub-class, albeit with a very steep experience curve.
The DL Knights had those quests to do to, which made for some nice RP, etc. As I recall they were effectively fighters, then clerics, and finally paladins.


Actually, it went more like Fighters (Knights of the Crown had no access to clerical spells), Paladins (Knights of the Sword had limited access to Clerical spells) and finally full on Fighter/Cleric with no restriction on dual classing (Knights of the Rose had access all the way to 7th level Clerical spells, while retaining all their Fighter abilities).

But looking at a Knight of the Rose's experience table made anyone and everyone cry.

07/30/2014 09:05 AMPosted by Galuda
I was referring to WC3, the last game made before the MMO.


The original context and the post you were replying to were discussing Warcraft II.

And WC3 -> WoW Classic, again, had no Paladin class. It was a Cleric class. #1 forum complaint.
Edited by Berith on 7/30/2014 9:14 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Paladin
10770
We're getting way off topic, though. I want to switch back to the real topic at hand "the feel of Retribution".

I'm a relative newcomer to these forums but mosts posts here seem to do one of 3 things:
a) suggest changes that would basically turn the retribution spec into a warrior spec
b) just outright say the paladin class sucks
c) make fun of Agincourt

So where do I stand? I played retribution first back in Burning Crusade. I got so fed up with people whispering me asking if I was "holy" that I actually deleted that toon. 6 long years later, Galuda was made to see if things have improved. Things have definitely improved, but retribution is a mid-tier melee spec and melee isn't that popular right now hence the QQ.

Do I have a warrior with a higher iLvl than this dude? Yes. Do I think warriors are easier to play than the retribution paladin? Yes. Do I think warriors are more effective in the DPS role than retribution paladins right now? Yes. Do I think warriors are as cool as paladins? No.

The main problem I have with retribution is it can be a little tough to watch the fight and keep track of your various cooldowns and secondary resources at the same time. Yeah, I have IceHUD and other add-ons, but to me if you need add-ons to play your class effectively, either you're a noob or the class rotation is too complex. Add-ons to help you do optimal DPS are like training wheels; they're not meant to be there permanently and I believe you're automatically still a noob so long as they're there.

What does all this have to do with the 'feel of retribution'? I think a little more fat can be trimmed while keeping the spec fun and well-balanced. I wish they did a little more swinging their axe/spear/sword/hammer/mace/scythe and less casting so if it were up to me, I'd probably have Art of War reduce the CD of Crusader Strike/HotR for a brief period and do away with Exorcism entirely. Most of the work has already been done in the upcoming expansion, though... and who knows, maybe melee won't be the unwanted stepchild it is in this expansion.
Edited by Galuda on 7/30/2014 10:32 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
15410
07/30/2014 10:18 AMPosted by Galuda
but to me if you need add-ons to play your class effectively, either you're a noob or the class rotation is too complex.


I use Weak Auras on all classes. Be careful when discussing things like this, are you discussing a skill floor or a skill ceiling ?

Because I can tell you right now : Destro Locks don't have a hard rotation, yet they have to use add-ons at high levels of play to track trinket procs and snapshot their DoTs, use their Embers in higher damage windows.

Launching all your Chaos bolts outside of trinket procs and using those procs for incinerate spam is going to make for same god awful DPS.

Retribution Paladins are no more or less hard to pick up than any other class. You have 3 generators, 2 cooldowns, and 1 spender which lights up when enough generators have been hit (AoE or ST, you swap abilities and end up with the same amount). They're already removing our maintenance buff next expansion. So really, the rotation isn't overly complicated. Squeezing out every last few drops requires proper trinket proc usage, properly timed cooldown usage, and a near perfect prioritization of ability use. But that's no different than other classes.

So which are you arguing ? The skill floor being too high or the skill ceiling being too high ?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10800
@Galuda, I'm not saying this to be rude, but it honestly sounds like you need addons. I say that because if watching health, and holy power while keeping track of the fight is challenging to you, then you aren't approaching what the spec can do.

I have never, ever heard anybody say that ret's rotation was complex. Also, btw, you just basically called every warlock that has ranked on a heroic fight a noob for using an addon to help their dps. And probably every feral druid as well.

The stock ui sucks. People use addons to put things where they will be easily accessible. I know a ton of high, high level rets that use barmods or weakauras to put CS, J, Exo and hp in the middle of the screen (or somewhere they can see it easily). That is efficiency, not being a noob.
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100 Draenei Paladin
10770
You know what... I think I was having an argument in real life about WoW and it somehow bled into my thought processes when I made the last post and I can't even follow my own train of thought.

So I believe the original statement made by Berith was something along the lines of "when I see statements like 'something should hit harder and less frequently' I think BARBARIAN, not paladin" and it kinda turned into this nerd vortex about paladins in AD&D and knights in history and then I just went way off-track...

He's right about that statement. Hitting harder and less frequently is more of a barbarian thing. But I do think we should be swinging our weapons. Our general single target rotation seems to be composed of TV, CS, Judgment, and Exo. And Art of War actually refreshes Exorcism, strangely enough, which is where I really have an axe to grind (no pun intended). I think Art of War should reduce your CS/HotR CD by 50% for 6 seconds or so, not refresh Exorcism. So not slower and harder, but more weapon swinging and a little less non-weapon holy damage.

Most of the rest of my post was me feeling guilty for even having the gall to make change suggestions when I did 170k on Juggernaut one week when I used my add-ons and only 128k when I tried to just use instinct. I don't think it came across that way, but that's what I was trying to say. I think there was a little bit of "less buttons to press doesn't always mean dumbing down" but I honestly can't tell.
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100 Draenei Paladin
19360
07/30/2014 01:33 PMPosted by Galuda
He's right about that statement. Hitting harder and less frequently is more of a barbarian thing.


Not really.

Historical barbarians pretty much fought with whatever weapons they could procure since they were usually the "uncivilized" facing off against some organized power.

Heavier and more uniform weaponry such as swords, pikes and war hammers were more often seen with Knights and organized foot.

In the end the WoW Paladin is whatever Blizzard wants to interpret it as.

A holy warrior running around with a big two hander or a sword and board has always suited me just fine.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 7/30/2014 1:48 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
15410
07/30/2014 01:33 PMPosted by Galuda
So I believe the original statement made by Berith was something along the lines of "when I see statements like 'something should hit harder and less frequently' I think BARBARIAN, not paladin" and it kinda turned into this nerd vortex about paladins in AD&D and knights in history and then I just went way off-track...


Well, you're talking about "feel". What we feel the class is and what our view of the class is comes from what we grew up on that makes us play the "boy scouts tincans" in the first place. I personally grew up on AD&D and Weis and Hickman's Dragonlance universe. I was pretty fond of characters like Vinas Solamnus, Huma Dragonbane and for Death Knights, my model of choice will always be Soth. The honorable, but greedy and jealous human.

07/30/2014 01:33 PMPosted by Galuda
I think there was a little bit of "less buttons to press doesn't always mean dumbing down" but I honestly can't tell.


Play Frost DW for a while. I push 2 buttons and I'm #1 on the meters... in Flex... against folks with 10 ilvls on me...

Howling Blast. Howling Blast. Frost Strike. Howling blast.... I wonder if it would work as a /castsequence macro.

07/30/2014 01:46 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
In the end the WoW Paladin is whatever Blizzard wants to interpret it as.


And if we let them have their way, we'd be the AD&D Cleric. Thank god we managed to whine our way out of that.

Or would you rather Holy be the only viable spec still ?
Edited by Berith on 7/30/2014 1:49 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
07/30/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Berith
Or would you rather Holy be the only viable spec still ?

Yes, then i wouldn't need to tank on my paladin anymore, and i'd be a free elf...
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100 Draenei Paladin
19360
07/30/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Berith
Or would you rather Holy be the only viable spec still ?


I was talking about our class mythos or our "look", our weapon style. Hence the weapons references in my post.

WoW Paladins have almost always been depicted swinging around massive two handed weapons, usually hammers, or failing that bearing a shield.

It fits the class flavor built over the years of Warcraft's existence perfectly, it suits established WoW Paladin lore.
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