<Ret> What to do after Thoks.

100 Tauren Paladin
12590
Recently got a Warforged Tail Tip after 7 months of not Playing. Was sitting on a TF Spark for ever, but was @ the 40% softcap with it. Ran a Sim this morning and got crit > haste > mastery, which according to EG is what it should come out to, but the values are so close they are basically the same.

When I look up full Heroic Rets, it seems like half of them go haste, the other half go mastery. EJ also says Haste is better for single, where mastery is better for Cheesing AoE. A good chunk of these fights are half aoe/cleave. I really don't know which to go for.

Also, I remember reading months ago about stacking crit after TTT? Anyone know how that turned out?
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22 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
90
Haste till 40% then stack full out mastery
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100 Tauren Paladin
12590
07/30/2014 06:55 PMPosted by Lazell
Haste till 40% then stack full out mastery


Thats what I was doing, but For every High Geared Paladin stacking Mastery, theres on in equal gear stacking haste.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19985
07/30/2014 07:19 PMPosted by Pádwani
07/30/2014 06:55 PMPosted by Lazell
Haste till 40% then stack full out mastery


Thats what I was doing, but For every High Geared Paladin stacking Mastery, theres on in equal gear stacking haste.


There's no secret answer.

You said yourself that you simmed it out and crit was just marginally better than mastery. IMO it's not worth going crit as you'll probably barely notice it. Mastery is the safer bet because of the amount of cleave fights in SoO.

As far as haste passed 40% if you're truly worried about it then sim it as well. But I can tell you most people will just say to go mastery > crit.
Edited by Vaelryn on 7/30/2014 10:09 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
15100
You can set the model under Simulationcraft to cleave fights, multi-target, etc.. You could try simming different types of fight found in there to see how the weights change from one to the other.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10800
There's two main builds people are using. Haste40>mastery like usual. Then Haste50>crit. If you go haste50>crit, you really need a 580+ TTT, and the off tier pieces are a little different. Most people use immerseus chest as the offpiece, but I've seen a very high ranking ret use gala shoulders also. Other options include spoils helm, or I think it is Shamans hands. Also, use sha sword in crit build.

Tbh, its very close. It isn't really true that mastery is more consistent. If you sim both, crit actually has a lower variance. But at gear levels like yours mastery also has a higher floor.

Saying either is better for cheesing is also inaccurate as well. What matters the most to getting a good ranking is fight strat. I know I will never rank on Protectors because my guild still transitions one boss at a time. After strat, the only real rng is how many t16 procs you get.

Hope this helped.
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100 Human Paladin
15100
If you go haste50>crit, you really need a 580+ TTT, and the off tier pieces are a little different. Most people use immerseus chest as the offpiece, but but I've seen a very high ranking ret use gala shoulders also.


Hit/Mastery shoulders ? In a Crit build ?

Krugruk's Rigid Shoulderplates
Edited by Berith on 7/31/2014 7:21 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10800
Sorry, it is spaulder's of the fallen warchief (mast+crit). Same icon on the char sheet, derped on reading the name.
Edited by Maegoree on 7/31/2014 7:30 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
>not using tusks
Filthy casuals
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100 Human Paladin
15100
>not using tusks
Filthy casuals


But it won't drop!

Man, haven't seen that. Ever. Scratch that, seen it on a filthy carry in Shrine. Guy had awful awful awful gear, didn't have the first clue how to Warrior... yet ... Tusks of Mannoroth.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10795
I was going to try a 50 haste>crit build and then my guild was all like "we won't need you til garrosh this week".

:/ Now I can't even go into a different heroic to test it.

Has anyone tried 50% haste>mastery build though?

Edit: Lim, are you Lazell?
Edited by Arte on 7/31/2014 10:57 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
15100
07/31/2014 10:55 AMPosted by Arte
:/ Now I can't even go into a different heroic to test it.


I tested my new EEoG in Flex 4.
Edited by Berith on 7/31/2014 11:14 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
10620
Single target 50% haste > Crit > Mastery

AoE 40% haste > Mastery > Crit.

Also the better and better gear you get the better 50% haste and Crit gets. Also player skill and lag make more of an impact if you go 50% haste > crit.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
07/31/2014 10:55 AMPosted by Arte
Has anyone tried 50% haste>mastery build though?

Edit: Lim, are you Lazell?

Sadly no, I'm one one of top prot paladins, not the top prot paladin :(

And after me messing around with different builds for a while i found the best one to be haste (46%) > Mastery/Crit in hybrid combo, rather than all mastery or all crit.

P.S. Unless i'm missing something is there a reason why everyone favors mastery so much for aoe over crit ?
(which has numbers and not "anaxie guestimated so", since i don't see why DS would scale better with mastery vs crit)
Edited by Liminara on 7/31/2014 11:36 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13380
EDIT: Added Mastery vs Crit section back.

Regarding Mastery > Crit, its likely due to 324 Mastery = 1% vs 600 Crit = 1%. You gain more with same stat budget.

Sims usually favor mastery up to 60% or so, and then crit starts to overtake mastery (1-3% deviation...which is basically negligible).

High Haste requires high uptime - you lose a larger percentage of DPS if you aren't constantly hitting something. For fights where there are large gaps during which you can't DPS, or for people who can't do their rotation at 100% efficiency while moving, it's much safer to go 40% Haste > Mastery.
Edited by Orisvae on 7/31/2014 12:13 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
07/31/2014 12:04 PMPosted by Orisvae
Regarding Mastery > Crit, its likely due to 324 Mastery = 1% vs 600 Crit = 1%. You gain more with same stat budget.

Sims usually favor mastery up to 60% or so, and then crit starts to overtake mastery (1-3% deviation...which is basically negligible).

Except this has nothing to do with ST vs AoE switching from crit to mastery and vise verse.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9125
Someone ran some Sims a while back and even with a constant 4 targets through the entire fire, Crit ~= Mastery. It really is a toss up between the two stats and very much depends on your current gear situation. If you're at all confused, just run sims/reforge plots to determine which of the two secondary secondary stats (that wasn't a typo) benefits you more.

At high haste levels all of our secondary stats are so god damn close to each other, anyways, that it doesn't really matter what you do... Our ret went from 45 -> 40% haste reforging the rest of it into mastery and I can only kind of see if a difference in his dps and that's on AoE fights.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13380
08/01/2014 01:09 AMPosted by Liminara
07/31/2014 12:04 PMPosted by Orisvae
Regarding Mastery > Crit, its likely due to 324 Mastery = 1% vs 600 Crit = 1%. You gain more with same stat budget.

Sims usually favor mastery up to 60% or so, and then crit starts to overtake mastery (1-3% deviation...which is basically negligible).

Except this has nothing to do with ST vs AoE switching from crit to mastery and vise verse.


Oops, misread the question.

Just did some fresh sims using my stats:

1 target: Mastery 5.34, Crit 5.74 = 0.40 DPS difference per point, advantage Crit
3 targets: Mastery 7.48, Crit 8.12 = 0.64 DPS difference per point, advantage Crit
6 targets: Mastery 12.71 , Crit 10.50 = 2.21 DPS difference per point, advantage Mastery
6 targets + 16.5% crit: Mastery 15.28, Crit 13.33 = 1.95 DPS difference per point, advantage Mastery
6 targets + 40% crit: Mastery 17.35, Crit 12.58 = 4.77 DPS difference per point, advantage Mastery

So...short answer... no idea why Mastery sims higher than Crit for AoE, it just sims that way.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11425
I adhere pretty strictly to what my reforge plots on SimCraft suggest. They told me that I'd see an increase in damage by going 50% Haste, so I did. They told me that I'd see an increase in damage from more Mastery, so I went Mastery after 50% Haste.

That said, they also suggest some amount of supplementary Crit, but it's such a small amount that I ignore it in favor of straight Mastery stacking. I have a preference for consistent damage, so I naturally favor Mastery anyway.

Now, I did do a 10-man clear with a straight Crit build (@ 50% Haste) last night and it was pretty fun. It's totally RNG based, but it obviously has the ability to rank well on any fight if RNGesus is with you. Crit builds are also theoretically the highest possible ST DPS builds, assuming you have a reasonably high item level. I actually plan on running a full Crit build for main raid next week to see if I can get some good RNG and maybe get a better parse on Juggernaut (and maybe Sha).

The way I see it, it's a toss-up based on preference and luck. You can stack as much Crit as you want, but if you aren't critting you aren't getting extra damage. You'll see top rankers running either build. Several top world Rets run Crit builds, but others like Solsacra and Graysonn run Mastery builds. Both are capable of ranking really well.
Edited by Qris on 8/1/2014 10:01 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
15100
08/01/2014 09:19 AMPosted by Qris
I adhere pretty strictly to what my reforge plots on SimCraft suggest.


The question is which sim are you running ? There are multiple choices (varrying number of targets and uptime on those targets).
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