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Okay so I apologize very much for the confusion in the past page, mostly due to my log with the old haste flask on. When clicking the cauldren it didn't overwrite it or put it on, I just simply didn't see that I had the old flask on still while the cauldren was now giving the str flask. That data is still good for that haste point! As it shows what downtime we will be at with ~1800 haste, but right now we have 1,261 haste on the beta, for +30.06% haste.
Same as always, runic pool style, Runic Corruption, Plaguebringer, Necrotic Plague. I am going to stop pointing this out now, and only note the changes like when I will test the use of Plague Leech.
More logs will come and I will edit them in before giving a final saying as I do at the bottom of these posts.
This log lasted 453 seconds, of which 288 GCD's were used. 36.4% downtime.
This log lasted 451 seconds, of which 284 GCD's were used. 37% downtime.
This log lasted 453 seconds, of which 285 GCD's were used. 37% downtime.
Edited by Maxweii on 8/18/2014 8:33 PM PDT
In anticipation of some blue conversation to be had soon (and to detract from some of the blatant QQ I'm seeing), a couple of questions/concerns for the blues:
-Why is Critical Strike deprecated by (at last calculation) around 20% for Frost DKs? In an expansion with bonus loot and no more reforging, it would seem that we are much more at the mercy of RNG when it comes to loot pieces.
While I am aware that we have some flexibility in the form of enchants and some consumables, is this deprecation really necessary in the first place?
-Continuing on the theme of stat valuation, Mastery's valuation for 2h Frost has also proven to be pitifully low in our early simulations. No, they don't contain today's changes, but if anything the gap has likely widened given that Obliterate damage has risen and Howling Blast damage has been nerfed.
We are concerned that both a low valuation of Critical Strike and Mastery is unhealthy for a subspec like 2h Frost in getting the most out of future upgrades.
-Necrotic Plague is currently simming at a DPS loss for multiple DPS specs. Other Level-100 talents also show a very minimal gain. We realise that there is probably room for significant improvement in how we're coding them, but these results also appear to be reflected in actual tests.
Could you please tell us if there is a margin of gain which we should expect (both ST and multi target) with these talents? I'd particularly appreciate if you could comment on Festerblight and Unholy Death Knights.
-Could you please comment on Unholy AoE and Frost Runes? As mentioned earlier in this thread, it is incredibly frustrating to transition in and out of AoE/Single-target priorities due to Frost Runes doing nothing for Unholy AoE. I realise that you intend for pre-planning to be reward, but the reality of the situation translates very differently in raid situations where we switch priorities frequently. It also pushes us quite strongly towards the Blood Tap talent.
-Speaking of Blood Tap, there seems to be little to no reason for Unholy DKs to take Runic Empowerment thanks to the way in which it interacts with our Rune setup. Other specs are not much better, as they have to game it to get the most out of it. This talent has proven unpopular for a reason, not the least of which is that macroed Blood Tap can mimic its functionality, but provide even greater flexibility due to it generating Death Runes.
-Runic Power generation for Blood Death Knights feels quite spiky. With Necrotic Plague for instance, it becomes overwhelming in any sort of AoE tanking situation- making the talent feel quite mandatory. With high levels of Multistrike, we appear to go from 0 to 50 Runic Power in barely a global. Is there no way to standardise the generation so that it doesn't feel quite as "Feast and Famine"-esque?
I'm sure to have plenty more to come, but that's all for now. Thank you!
They are consolidated buttons that will morph depending on which talent one picks. They essentially replace the macros many of us have been using, as the talents usually occupy the same keybind/space.
So with all the hubbub about haste and downtime and such, I'm wonder if there's anyway to maintain a consistent pace to the rotation of frost dps (particularly 2h) without having to nerf haste or acquire a ton of it? That may allow for a better variety in secondary stats that players choose to take.
Edited by Terraburn on 8/18/2014 8:21 PM PDT
Overall, Unholy could really use some feedback on where its damage is supposed to be.
Necrotic Plague appears to do less damage than normal diseases, even for a Festerblight rotation.
Necrosis appears to be doing maybe 1% of Unholy's overall damage. Which feels very low.
Death Coil appears to be doing around 12-15% of overall damage, down from 20-25%.
The ghoul's damage seems about normal at 10%, if maybe a bit low.
Overall, it would just be nice to get some feedback on where Unholy damage is supposed to be. We all believed it was low and yet, it got nothing but nerfs today.
Edited by Rothulian on 8/18/2014 8:19 PM PDT
After doing all the Heroic Testing, I have a little more feedback on Blood:
I've said this one a few times before, but I would like to see DnD be worth casting for Blood; right now it's less damage over the duration then Blood Boil, meaning it's almost never worth casting except in edge cases, since DnD competes directly with Blood Boil on Death Runes/Crimson Scourge. Would like to see a change to this in the next few builds.
Necrotic Plague should not be a DPS loss for Blood (and DPS specs); again needs some tuning.
Defile feels very lackluster/passive, but I guess that is the intent for it to feel 'passive'?
Breath of Sindragosa has a lot of potential to prevent GCD locking woes later in the expac, and honestly plays pretty well for Blood even right now. I hope the talent doesn't lose the basic functionality of an independent RP dump. It plays very well with the RNG nature of Blood resource gen ATM, since it lets you dump during feast periods, and not dump during famine periods.
Plague Leech plays very well with the rotation, to the extent that I honestly think it should be made baseline; that whole tier is a mess outside of that talent for Blood, Plaguebearer and Unholy Blight are basically worthless to Blood if you don't spec NP, and even with NP they are terrible (and NP is a DPS loss ATM anyways).
Reason I like PL so much; as said above, Blood resource gen is pretty RNG. PL helps you out during the famine periods where you have bad RNG. Makes it pretty interesting to use, adds depth and gameplay. A great win all around.
Lichborne is a sad, sad joke even with Resolve scaling. I legitimately tried to use this talent on a few bosses, and it heals for NOTHING and doesn't last long enough. Should really get buffed in the leech % or something. Right now this talent is only there to break/immune fears.
Rune Tap plays very well, even outside of bosses with obvious 'Rune Tap here' burst mechanics. However it really should lose the Blood Rune cost; having it cost DPS is a little much, esp on AoE. It would still retain all of the current gameplay; it's main cost is the cooldown. The problem with picking between DPS and Mitigation is that either Blood will be OP on damage when picking DPS, which isn't fair to the other 4 tanks, or Blood will be too weak when it doesn't, which isn't fair to Blood. This also applies to BB vs DS, but that one isn't really easily fixable on aoe, only single target.
To elaborate more: RT works well because it is different from Death Strike AND does not share the same resource. Systems like Shield Block vs Barrier fail because you just pick the best one for the situation and spam it. RT + DS play well because they are both very different in functionality AND can be used in tandem, meaning you pick your moments to use each one independently. So generally speaking, good job on the new RT. Far better then the old RT which was basically DS on steroids, and actually adds something to the spec now.
Downtime wise: felt okay at raid gear levels (still wasn't really GCD locked, but if you are GCD locked in the first tier, there is a problem), but is slightly too much below that point (for example in dungeon blues).
Still would like to see something else done with Crit > Parry (it's really not that strong or interesting making crit a slightly weak stat to Blood), but I am assuming we are past that point in the design process where changes to things like this are possible, so I won't harp on the point any longer.
General comment on boss damage; feels tuned pretty well. Bosses hit hard enough to make DS timing matter about the same as on live (people way overstate how much you actually time DS on live on anything but the hardest hitting bosses). Would definitely rather see bosses that hit hard then bosses that hit so weak that nothing you do matters anyways. Also bosses hitting hard means that Shadow of Death extra HP actually matters, which is generally a good thing (if max HP doesn't matter because bosses don't hit hard enough, Multistrike loses much of it's defensive benefit outside of rune regen talent returns) But we will have to see post mythic testing; I am sure a lot of this stuff is getting retuned anyways.
Edited by Troxism on 8/18/2014 8:41 PM PDT
I know number tuning is not done, but really, our level 100 tier just feels bad.
Tuning will happen and NP will be the go-to for basically every spec. Until then, it's a DPS loss that requires more attention to keep up (from a Blood perspective).
Breath of Sindragosa makes out play our class the exact opposite we've been playing since day 1. It's weird, and even when pulled off correctly, doesn't give a decent payoff. Not good. I don't see anyone seriously using this talent for any spec.
Defile feels (for lack of a better term) bad as well. Knowing it only ticks 10 times, instead of DnD's 11 times...It's very small size and damage increase...It honestly feels more like a cosmetic glyph than a talent.
A few more questions for blues, if they manage to get this far!
-Some glyphs feel like they shouldn't exist.
Glyph of Dancing Rune Weapon, for instance, gives us a boost in an area (threat) where none is needed- not with a 900% Threat Modifier in WoD, and nerfs the damage of the ability considerably.
Is this not the definition of a trap glyph?
Glyph of Blood Boil is also a glyph that I wish didn't exist- it doesn't feel right for a glyph to ALWAYS be an either "right" or "wrong" choice, which is what the glyph is. If there is any sort of AoE in an area where there's even a chance that adds will be further than 10 years away from the Death Knight at any stage, the glyph is a must take for Unholy and Blood DKs.
Conversely, it's an absolute dud glyph in any sort of single-target situation. Why is this considered a good glyph?
-Anti-Magic Zone as a talent does not feel like a fun choice for DPS DKs. Indeed, in an expansion where raid cooldowns have been drastically scaled back, it does not feel like a choice- it feels mandatory if my group needs a CD. Sacrificing personal survivability for the raid's sake doesn't feel like a fun choice, because it's one that is made for me by my raid leader. At least when picking between Gorefiend's Grasp and its competitors, the difference between it and, say, Desecrated Ground, doesn't impact personal survival to such a degree.
Conversely, during PvP and solo-question, AMZ feels like a fairly useless talent due to being group reliant. Is this really the situation we want to leave this tier in?
Happy to help!
The non Plague Leech logs are done, they average out to 36.8% downtime. Coming down from ~45% that feels a lot better, however it still feel a bit slow. It feels good for sure, but just a wee bit off from a real good feel to it.
After a quick killing of the Lich King, I shall do the tests with Plague Leech to see where the downtime with the talent stands.
I would say quite a bit more than just AMZ are a problem personally. The fact that I have to choose between movement or a snare/stun in the very next tier is terrible design. We lose some form of CC just to get even a little bit of mobility.
Then there's tier 90....We have a talent that is unique but doesn't have a lot of usability over a full tier, A worthless stun that is absolutely avoidable, and a CC release so to speak...another tier that makes no sense and it's the current(on live servers) max level talents...The fact they went through as is, is actually quite pathetic. Remorseless Winter without damage is not Remorseless Winter.
Then our 56 Tier, Two talents around applying diseases some way shape or form, and then one that removes them....Personally it doesn't make sense having plague leech there.
Then T75, while it's a fairly balanced tree since it's all on self heals I don't understand why DP is there at all. It was a baseline spell for us through wotlk/cata. DK survival was based off healing, and now self healing as a whole is a joke and we've yet to be compensated defensively for the loss of our self healing power. DP should be made baseline, and instead of having a "heal cap" after using it, it should apply some form of defensive benefit after using it. Then make another Healing talent like increasing DS healing 100% but giving it a 10 second cooldown(Terrible idea, but I think DP should be baseline not a talent).
Finally T100, NP mechanically is the only one that works perfectly. Defile is pretty unimaginative but it's better than BoS. Mechanically as a dps DK I don't care if it's a 300% dps increase it will make the spec unbearable to me personally due to how poor mechanically it is and I'm sure I am not the only person to think that.
EDIT: Going to our Rune Regen tier, it is the only one that provides any actual balanced choice. That doesn't mean it's good though. The problem is none of the Rune Regen mechanics alter your playstyle and all of them are basically passive. So while there is choice, it's honestly a pointless choice since nothing changes regardless of what you pick.
I know you are only looking at AMZ specifically, but to me you can't just bring that up without bringing up the overall shortcomings of our entire tree. Outside of two tiers it's a complete mess in terms of theme and I think it's time they actually pay attention to how bad our tree is.
Edited by Runë on 8/18/2014 8:45 PM PDT
Hey DKs. I've responded to a lot of DK questions on Twitter, but finally am getting time to pop in here to the forums and respond on the forums. Frost in particular has has gotten some significant changes, and frustration from that is totally understandable.
Loot changes actually have very little impact on this. However, we do want secondary stats to be close in value, and these are just a tuning issues that we want to improve upon. Please post your theorycrafting results over in the Class Design Theorycraft Results thread.
I'd hope it'd be obvious that in a row of throughput talents, one that reduces your throughput is not intended. Yes, we'll tune the whole row to be a significant but not huge damage gain. Something similar in power to most of our other throughput increasing talent rows.
We see it as a minor annoyance. We haven't found a solution that we're happy with that doesn't have negatives that outweigh the positives. Ideas are welcome, though the problem isn't impactful enough to warrant a mechanic change at this point for 6.0. It's something we'd be interested in addressing in a future patch.
This is another case where what is there works, and we think we could do better, we just are still trying to find the right solution. I'd say that the goal we're looking for is to make the payoff of Runic Empowerment stronger (perhaps just a numbers tweak would work here), and to make Blood Tap not macroable (but just putting it on the GCD has some significant downsides).
Indeed it does. Currently, the issue is that we need to get X total RP out of Y multistrike, and so the tuning is as such. However, that makes it spiky. You could argue that that's OK, since you can spend it in big chunks, and the defensive value of it is heavily smoothed. Because of that, we're tentatively OK with it for now, but would be interested in iterating on it in the future.
In closing, similar to what I've said to a few other classes tonight, I'd like to discuss this further with you all, but please make that easy for me to do, by keeping the hyperbole and anger and useless sarcasm and generally destructive behavior out of this. Thanks.
Edited by Celestalon on 8/18/2014 9:18 PM PDT
Any thoughts on how necrosis is playing for unholy? So far it hasn't had much impact on stat weights, though it is a close second and I will be posting results in the theorycraft thread.
Adjusting the AP scaling provides great progress and it raises multi above anything else by as little or as much as desired.
Edited by Nangz on 8/18/2014 9:28 PM PDT
Thanks for taking time for us, Celestalon.
Will do. I'm not sure there are many tuning tweaks that we can do at this point to fix the disparity due to the damage source differences between subspecs, but I'll go bounce the results of my modeling over to you guys when I finish wiping to this LFR.
Do you want feedback on this here or in the theorycrafting thread?
I think that in a world where DKs aren't completely GCD locked, having a (slight) numerical return advantage on RE combined with BT not being macroable would likely make the choice meaningful.
The choice goes away some when we GCD lock, but - correct me if I'm wrong - I think you're trying to avoid that this expansion?
Suggestion: Give Blood multistrikes a chance to trigger our rune regen talents directly, instead of going through the rune -> RP -> T4 talent -> rune conversion cycle. That'll help our currently *drastic* play difference between low haste/multistrike and high haste/multistrike.
Getting down to the numbers with Plague Leech logs quick here.
This log lasted 453 seconds, of which 326 GCD's were used. 28% downtime.
This log lasted 449 seconds, of which 319 GCD's were used. 28.9% downtime.
This log was 453 seconds, of which 344 GCD's were used. 24% downtime.
Averages to 26.96% downtime.
Something really becomes very obvious with the change to Plague Leech that was added to this build. While the talent can yield a dps increase, it can easily be pretty dps neutral as well. From the first test it yielded almost no difference in damage, while it reduced the downtime it didn't affect the damage much at all. By the third test with it though you can see that it yielded an almost 1k increase in dps, which isn't much and I think would be in line with Plaguebringer once Necrotic Plague is tuned.
The change made it so that you can return one rune if you misspend the GCD on the talent, but lets you get two back if used properly. By the third test I got into the flow of things, and knew just when to hit it to yield two runes, and also get back into the rotation as fast as possible.This did come at a trade off, as the % of crits compared to non crits I got on FS lowered compared to not using it. I simply was at a point where due to the extra runes I just had a bit of an overflow of resources.
I overall feel that Plague Leech no longer feels that it's absolutely needed. Thinking ahead and looking at the tuning side of things, Plaguebringer stacking NP faster could defiantly compete with this. I feel it's now an actual choice if you want a faster, but much harder rotation, or a slightly slower, more controlled rotation.
Edited by Maxweii on 8/19/2014 10:08 PM PDT
Good to hear that t100 is not balanced yet, was scared for a bit. Also ive allways felt that RCs main issue is that its sooo very rng, sometimes i've 8 seconds of it and have tons of runes others i got minutes without a single proc. it works for RE but the same% on RC just makes it meh. Not sure if its a good solution but maybe a lower rune haste higher proc rate would work out? had some names wrong
Edited by Seimosiev on 8/18/2014 11:28 PM PDT
Precisely. It sounds like it's undertuned at the moment, but the point is that it's a tuning knob that we can use to bring up the value of Multistrike for Unholy. When we get into more closely balancing the secondary stats, I expect that it's a knob that we'll tweak.
As mentioned above, Necrotic Plague used to be massively overpowered, and we just turned it way down to avoid tainting feedback from it. We'll tune it back up to the right spot.
Necrosis, I'd guess more like the 2-5% range.
Death Coil... Remember that it grows in % with gear (Mastery). It should probably be in the 15-20% range to start with, single-target, and raise to 20-25% over the course of the expansion. Those are just off-the-top-of-my-head numbers, from this current point in time; tuning goals can always change (thus why we rarely give out hard numbers in that realm).
Breath of Sindragosa has been a challenge. It's been sort of halfway between being a rotational AoE RP dump, and a pool->burst cooldown. We decided that we should push it one way or the other, more convincingly. So, in the next build, it's having its damage *and* cooldown considerably increased (2min CD, 2.5x the dmg, though dmg tuning is still quite rough). Considering going higher still (3min CD). The goal here is that it becomes purely a cooldown that you pool resources for. It should only be affecting your rotation for some pooling time before it comes off CD, and then has the "keep it going as long as you can" gameplay while it's running. But, that should only cover a fraction of your actual gameplay time (whereas currently, that whole pooling->burn process covers nearly half your time). And yes, it, just like the rest of the row, should be worth using on single targets.
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