Mr Chilton - What do you mean you don't know?

Community Manager
08/19/2014 04:55 PMPosted by Shådowwings
Why you should give no-flying a CHANCE at least and why I will.

Everyone knows that we don't always do what's best for ourselves. I remember in high school I worked out 6 days a week because I had a coach yelling at me. It forced me into something I didn't enjoy but in essence was good for me. Now I'm a fatty mcFatFat, sorry ladies, and we all have this in our life. Think of something you once had a coach, a parent, a friend, whatever pushing you to do something that was good for you but you didn't overall get excited about but you did it because you had that push. It's the same here.

Blizzard has mentioned, in not so many words, that sometimes people have to be pushed into something (not harmful) to get them to try it out and in this case I agree. I'm not a huge fan of the thoughts of no flying at max level but when I first heard the no flying my first thought was Theremore.

You see, I started wow in BC. My boss and colleagues at the place I worked played wow and wanted me to join in. So I talked one of my friends into it as well. I remember my boss on his max level toon just walking, not even mounted, with us to give us a tour. My friend and I were in awe of the [I]actual[/i] WORLD of warcraft. It was a massive game that we could play online in a role playing kind of setting (get it??).

I miss that honestly. I've been jaded since Lich King. Even with these thoughts I will mount up on my flying mount instantly and just fly off somewhere or drop down on an objective then flight form back out when done. We all are a lil bit fatty mcFatFat like me. I'm not saying the no flying will be great, it may flop, and it may change back, but until we have our coach, our friend, our mom, our dad, our local nike representative, saying JUST DO IT.. we will never know. So yeah, I'm not sure how this will turn out, but I won't lie. When I heard about it and it forced me to think back to that walking tour from stormwind, to iron froge, across the pond to theremore, being chased by crocodiles and just laughing with my friend because we, at the time, with fresh eyes saw the world blizzard created, I kind of smiled.

I believe you all should do that. Think back to when you first logged into wow. The first "tour" you had before you worried about xp, and loot, and gear colors. I'm not saying you agree with the no-flying thing, but if you miss that original feeling of new and fresh and seeing it all as massive when you stood there and looked up. Join with me and say "I don't want to be Fatty mcFatFat" and blizzard, as my coach, I may not like it when thinking about it but by god I'll never know if you don't do it. I'll give it a chance, I won't give up until I at least try. So even if I myself moan and groan by you forcing me into it I at least had that chance again to remember the fun I had before I became jaded. We shall see.

[Note: I have a great personality ladies]

lol, fun read. Thanks for sharing, Shådowwings. ;)
08/19/2014 05:09 PMPosted by Vixie
08/19/2014 04:59 PMPosted by Corbenn
I wouldn't give a crap, because like more than half the playerbase I'm not on a PVP server. I sincerely hope that "world PVP" *isn't* part of their rationale for removing flight at max level.


So you're okay with the ore/herb stealer who swoops out of the sky and laughs at you fighting a dozen mobs to get to the node? I know that happens on PvE realms - and you can't even hit the rude bastidge. You're okay with doing a quest to kill 10 piggies and the level 100 flies in, tags them all cuz he's leveling skinning?

It's not just about the ganking interruptions - cuz that actually facilitates actual world PvP when friends and guildies are called in. Though 90 vs. 100 = little hamster crossing the road vs. semi-truck. The entire world being like Hellfire's combat zone is not a good leveling experience.

No flying til 6.1 would be a fairly peaceful experience for every realm, I think.


No flying does absolutely nothing to combat either of those issues. If I'm fighting whatever mobs are guarding the node, it's just as easy for someone on foot to walk up and gather it as a flyer. It's not as if they need to get away from me. And a level 100 literally CAN"T tag mobs from flight, so what does the fact that they "swooped in" have to do with it? They're still on the ground in both cases being dicks, and will still be on the ground being dicks.

The solutions to these problems have been done, with great success, in other games already.

For nodes, make the spawn of them personal, so only I see the nodes I can gather, and other people see completely separate nodes.

For quest mobs (and not just specifically named mobs) simply increasing spawn rates will NEVER fully fix the issue, while allowing everyone (of the same faction at least) who hits it get credit would encourage players to work together and help their fellow players out, rather than forcing us to view every single player that's not in the same group as us as the enemy, rather than just members of the opposing faction.

Sure, that might be abusable, but if xp scales with the number (but not level) of people that killed something, it'd actually be LESS abusable than the current system, where a solo low level can run around with a high level friend who isn't grouped with them and get all the exp as long as the low level hits it first.

Anyway, back to the original point, flying pre- or post-6.1 has literally no effect on either of these situations, and I've yet to see a single benefit to either case over simply restricting flying to max level. Of course, that's already out the window, but no flying ever is completely unacceptable to me after 4 expacs of flying.
08/19/2014 05:34 PMPosted by Henessey
Can you elude as to where those might be (if I missed them) or if they simply haven't been implemented yet?


I too am curious as to where these are!
90 Blood Elf Warlock
9670
Zarhym:My question on latency. ?
100 Undead Warlock
4585
08/19/2014 03:12 PMPosted by Zarhym
...

So i am just curious if you even read this. Do you guys really need to wait for the forums to get flooded with negative feed back about no flying at max level from level 100 players before you start to see maybe we want that option? Or is it really not painfully obvious to you all now?

Don't mistake my statements to mean we design by democracy. We've been over this many times. Draenor content is specifically tailored to gameplay on the ground and flying mounts negate that. We understand a lot of people are really vocal in their disgust with the mere idea of not being able to fly once they reach 100. That doesn't mean we're automatically going to cave on our desire for players to experience the content as it's intended by design.


I believe those players have pointed out that this is merely going to encourage them to AFK in cities and/or their garrisons, in which case, they won't be "experiencing" the content as it was designed... at all.

Wouldn't you rather give them the option to engage the content on the ground when and where they desire? If you want it to be somewhat challenging, you could do things like increasing mob density (or maybe put in a random effect like the steam spouts near the Jade dancers on the Timeless Isle). But funneling them into a city/garrison and having them parked there for the entirety of the expansion probably isn't your intention, is it?
100 Blood Elf Paladin
12740
I know this hasn't been touched in a while and it is slightly off topic but any chance for new class opportunities for some races within the life of WOD? Or is it something to look for next expansion perhaps?

Like a blood elf shaman or resto druid..hint...hint..
Edited by Marathel on 8/19/2014 5:40 PM PDT
Community Manager
08/19/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Alidir
And if there is max level questing in zones at 100. Which to me sounds like another way of saying dailies. Why does it matter if I chose to get there by flying mount. I would still have to dismount to complete the objective.

Man, but having to dismount sucks. :p

Only kidding, but as far as I'm concerned you've emphasized my point about a big and dangerous world being largely ignored so you can dismount to check something off your cheat sheet and check out.
08/19/2014 05:34 PMPosted by Zarhym
08/19/2014 04:55 PMPosted by Shådowwings
Why you should give no-flying a CHANCE at least and why I will.

Everyone knows that we don't always do what's best for ourselves. I remember in high school I worked out 6 days a week because I had a coach yelling at me. It forced me into something I didn't enjoy but in essence was good for me. Now I'm a fatty mcFatFat, sorry ladies, and we all have this in our life. Think of something you once had a coach, a parent, a friend, whatever pushing you to do something that was good for you but you didn't overall get excited about but you did it because you had that push. It's the same here.

Blizzard has mentioned, in not so many words, that sometimes people have to be pushed into something (not harmful) to get them to try it out and in this case I agree. I'm not a huge fan of the thoughts of no flying at max level but when I first heard the no flying my first thought was Theremore.

You see, I started wow in BC. My boss and colleagues at the place I worked played wow and wanted me to join in. So I talked one of my friends into it as well. I remember my boss on his max level toon just walking, not even mounted, with us to give us a tour. My friend and I were in awe of the [I]actual[/i] WORLD of warcraft. It was a massive game that we could play online in a role playing kind of setting (get it??).

I miss that honestly. I've been jaded since Lich King. Even with these thoughts I will mount up on my flying mount instantly and just fly off somewhere or drop down on an objective then flight form back out when done. We all are a lil bit fatty mcFatFat like me. I'm not saying the no flying will be great, it may flop, and it may change back, but until we have our coach, our friend, our mom, our dad, our local nike representative, saying JUST DO IT.. we will never know. So yeah, I'm not sure how this will turn out, but I won't lie. When I heard about it and it forced me to think back to that walking tour from stormwind, to iron froge, across the pond to theremore, being chased by crocodiles and just laughing with my friend because we, at the time, with fresh eyes saw the world blizzard created, I kind of smiled.

I believe you all should do that. Think back to when you first logged into wow. The first "tour" you had before you worried about xp, and loot, and gear colors. I'm not saying you agree with the no-flying thing, but if you miss that original feeling of new and fresh and seeing it all as massive when you stood there and looked up. Join with me and say "I don't want to be Fatty mcFatFat" and blizzard, as my coach, I may not like it when thinking about it but by god I'll never know if you don't do it. I'll give it a chance, I won't give up until I at least try. So even if I myself moan and groan by you forcing me into it I at least had that chance again to remember the fun I had before I became jaded. We shall see.

[Note: I have a great personality ladies]

lol, fun read. Thanks for sharing, Shådowwings. ;)
These replies from you are getting frustrating Zarhym. We know you support these sorts of posts, we don't need you telling us to read them. Blue posts that don't add anything are infuriating, even more than regular posts that don't add anything.

As for the points being made in that post, I still don't see anything about it that lends credit to no-flying that doesn't also work for only max level flying. The hugeness is only fun until you've explored everything. After that, running around is nothing but tedious.
90 Blood Elf Priest
9050
08/19/2014 04:39 PMPosted by Crepe
08/19/2014 04:37 PMPosted by Fittz
This and other comments make it seem more and more like Blizzard has no intention of adding flying in Draenor at any point in the expansion, instead of at 6.1 like was assured to us earlier in development.

Please tell me this isn't true.


The zones are built for 3 dimensions. They're flyable.

6.1 is the intention.


I think if 6.1 flying was their goal no matter what, they'd just say it.

However, the fact that the zones are built for flying even though the content is intended to be consumed at ground level is an important one.

I wish all the folks crying so loud about flying and trashing Blizzard for being the root of all evil could take five seconds to try to understand what's actually going on and what it says about the devs.

These guys firmly believe that removing flying is the right thing to do for the game. There are comments from devs going back as far as WotLK suggesting they view free-flight as one of their greatest mistakes.

It's not by accident that every time we get pve content patched in -- from Quel'Danas to Timeless Isle -- it's been a no-fly zone. It's not by accident that instanced content and most PvP specific areas are no-fly zones. It's not by accident that every expansion sans Cata opened up with no flying til level cap.

It's virtually impossible to create engaging content on the ground when players have the option to fly over it. This is not the designers being "lazy" and forcing people to play "their way". This is the designers finally ripping the band-aid off instead of implementing arbitrary no-fly zones everywhere they want content to be relevant.

At the same time, the fact that the zones are designed to be flyable means that Blizzard is leaving themselves open to flexibility based on player feedback. The non-stop shrieking of players who haven't even experienced the beta is completely irrelevant. Feedback on no-flying in the beta has been overwhelmingly positive. We could see a swing either way once the majority of our seven-million-strong player base is max level and reacting rationally after experiencing the lvl 100 content without flying, at which point Blizzard will make a decision.

Because, as it turns out, they really want to make a good game, and have to constantly make incredibly tough choices that balance their design vision with the myriad wants and needs of an enormous population, the majority of whom never give any verbal feedback, ever.
08/19/2014 05:40 PMPosted by Zarhym
Only kidding, but as far as I'm concerned you've emphasized my point about a big and dangerous world being largely ignored so you can dismount to check something off your cheat sheet and check out.


Again, if this is the primary goal in removing flying, why does non-mount travel have to be so odious? Removing the cooldown on the hearthstone as well as making flight paths instantaneous mitigates the concern over travel time while still encouraging people to interact with the world.
100 Pandaren Hunter
9825
08/19/2014 03:12 PMPosted by Zarhym
Don't mistake my statements to mean we design by democracy. We've been over this many times. Draenor content is specifically tailored to gameplay on the ground and flying mounts negate that. We understand a lot of people are really vocal in their disgust with the mere idea of not being able to fly once they reach 100. That doesn't mean we're automatically going to cave on our desire for players to experience the content as it's intended by design.

Each time the question of flight is brought up it gets mentioned that it won't be added at launch because the entire launch content was designed around no flight even at max level. I was wondering what would make the designers decide to focus so heavily on something that is controversial at a time when you yourself say
08/19/2014 03:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
our focus at this point is more on keeping our current subscribers happy and reacquainting former players with the game.

The two to me seem completely at odds. Would it not make more sense to design content based on your data that would satisfy a vast majority? And on the side add something new like you did with Garrisons, while not "removing" what is otherwise an expected feature and alienate even a small portion of your player base.
92 Tauren Druid
9780
08/19/2014 05:32 PMPosted by Pengalor
...

You do realize you were only given that "choice" because blizzard allowed it right. People forget WoW wasn't designed with flying. WE the people did not write the lines of code for WoW. WE the people did not design the characters. You were given the privilege of flying not the right of flying. People constantly talk about vanilla days, and BC days, and partially LK days and how WoW has been dying since then. Think about it. That is exactly in line with the time of blizzard trying to pander to QQ's so much instead of going with got them to god mode gaming status in the first place. They had MILLIONS of people before you felt you had a right to flying. Their subscriptions went up and uP and UP before you felt you had a "right" to flying. What in the world makes you think it's such a bad idea when their greatest growth was before the pre-entitlement thought process of the community to flying.

Again, I'm not saying I'm for the no flying, I'm saying I will try it and see and not CRY about it before I've even experienced it.

Wow had almost 8 MILLION in growth during beta and no expansion since has come close. Granted some of that will be due to just a smaller market since they already got a large chunk for initial growth, but every since flying the growth has been minimal, stale, or declining. So you people need to quit lecturing about how FLYING will KILL wow when BEFORE there was flying they had more people join in and grow the game than ALL xpac's since COMBINED. Flying will not kill WoW. If you feel World of Warcraft is a flight simulator then you don't understand wow. You speak of "nostalgia" like it's an insult. You're damned right I miss the days of awe. I wasn't even here for vanilla but I can imagine how huge it seemed to those people. Nostalgia keeps things alive. Children thinking flying is what makes a massive multiplyer online role playing game should get some nostalgia of their own and maybe remember what a game and fun is. I don't pay $15 a month to fly, I pay $15 a month to be in awe.


Oh jeez, okay, time for some debunking. First of all, it's completely wrong to say WoW wasn't designed around flying. Sure, maybe vanilla wasn't. However, BC was, Wrath was, Cata was (both for its new zones as well as its redesigned old ones), MoP definitely was. They knew it was there so of course they designed for it. Why do you think there are things like flying guards as early as TBC over faction camps? It's also not entitlement. Not even sure where you get that idea considering it's something we've had for the vast majority of the game's lifetime that they are now considering taking away. It's not entitlement to believe that something that's been in the game for so long should stay as it's a feature many people enjoy. And good job saying they're pandering to the people complaining about flying. Considering that's the vocal minority it just goes to show how ridiculous a decision it is.

As for the numbers, Wrath was the highest sub point in the game's history. Subs started to fall during Cata. There is no correlation there with flying, rather the quality of the expansions and the age of the game in general. And of course nostalgia is a bad thing because it causes you to remember the good things while ignoring all the bad and it's subject to your personal biases. Nice throwing that 'children' remark in there too. Yeah, you're clearly the mature one calling the people who disagree with you 'children'. Sad part is, you know the game is for fun and yet you don't simply stop flying when you don't enjoy it. The irony is delicious.


I'm just going to say a simple small thing to you because you mis-read most of everything. I said Vanilla had the largest sub growth of all xpacs combined. You stating that LK had the highest sub count only denotes it had people come in that were building off of vanilla and BC.

Since you want to banter about LK and act like that's your point and proof then here's some facts for you.

WotLK was the slowest growth xpac before cata.
WotLK retained sub numbers but only grew 500k in entire xpac life.

I will also just say quickly because I don't want to type a ton of stuff you won't read properly again. I STATED that WoW's largest growth (even combining ALL xpacs since vanilla) was during vanillia when there was no flying. It's odd you can see the facts and coincidence here that I tried to clarify. You all want to claim flying makes or breaks wow, yet ever since the introduction of flying wow has done nothing but slowly grow for 2 xpacs then decline. I'm not saying flying caused that, but what in the world makes you think flying is so great if the slowest times of WoW were while flying was available.

I will use the term "children" again on you. Learn to read slower and understand. Not take bits and pieces and try to make them into something of your own. I stated very clearly for you the exact same things I said before. Don't twist words, it makes you a liar.
91 Night Elf Druid
16845
I know this hasn't been touched in a while and it is slightly off topic but any chance for new class opportunities for some races?

Like a blood elf shaman or resto druid..hint...hint..


You should probably be more worried about getting that new BE model in a reasonable amount of time after release.
90 Gnome Warrior
13000
08/19/2014 05:40 PMPosted by Zarhym
Only kidding, but as far as I'm concerned you've emphasized my point about a big and dangerous world being largely ignored so you can dismount to check something off your cheat sheet and check out.


One could also make the argument that if flying into a quest objective was such an issue, you would add anti-flying measures to those objectives such as anti-aircraft dismounts. Oh, I forgot, Blizzard doesn't like those. I forgot.

One could also make the argument that if flying to a quest objective was such an issue, you COULD make that objective enough of a challenge that it would still require grouping or some such thing. But common sense isn't always so common.
90 Blood Elf Priest
9050
These replies from you are getting frustrating Zarhym. We know you support these sorts of posts, we don't need you telling us to read them. Blue posts that don't add anything are infuriating, even more than regular posts that don't add anything


Blizzard employees are people, bro. Every single sentence typed by a CM does not need to be a substantive design statement. Get a life.
100 Troll Hunter
18545
08/19/2014 05:31 PMPosted by Zarhym
08/19/2014 04:46 PMPosted by Pengalor
BTW, please don't say that it's been designed with ground mounts in mind, beta clearly shows that not to be the case.

Sorry if I've caused confusion in that regard.

I'm not talking about environment design. Yes, the terrain on Draenor has been fully designed such that there are no 2D backdrops like in vanilla WoW. It's technically possible to fly in Draenor zones. I'm talking about many elements of our gameplay being designed for the ground.

It's the whole concept Bashiok explained some months back of not wanting you to swoop down in some massive lair to kill the main bad guy for your objective and fly away, avoiding all the other elements of that area. Our level designers have put a lot of effort into creating interesting, immersive areas of the game world that are fun and sometimes dangerous, yet rewarding.

Allowing flying might well mean that many of those areas are trivialized and then -- again, going back to the path of least resistance -- people will get bored and want more content to breeze past for the end reward.

We don't want travel to be a major burden in 6.0 and we're committed to offering a variety of methods to get you where you need to go in a more timely fashion than we do in places like Pandaria when you're left to "public transportation." But when you do get to where you need to go, you should know you're in a vast and dangerous world, with a lot to do and discover. It's a mix of Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle with even new gameplay elements sprinkled in, most of which just wouldn't be the same if you could fly wherever you want.


While I can appreciate where you're coming from the content simply doesn't show it and that makes the claims seem insincere. For example, quests where you don't want people swooping down. There's an easy fix, force them to kill some extra mobs in the area as well or make the bosses tough in their own right. In fact, I can think of quite a few quests on beta where they have you kill a boss as well as some lackeys so it seems you guys are already on that. Also, it's worth noting that from my experience in numerous topics on the matter that most of the people who want flying want it for max level. Now, I would ask you, is the trivialization of say, quest content for example, really be a big deal at max level? I mean, let's be honest here, the content you guys have made (while good) is not really difficult at the intended level, much less max level. The quest content is fairly easy and mindless with a few rare (and probably overtuned from what you intended) examples. Believe me, if the content was meaningful and difficult I would be much more understanding but from my experience on the beta all I see is roadblocks or annoyances at max level.

I can also appreciate that you are trying to make travel easier but to be honest I don't think that's what a lot of us who want flying are looking for. Just having good flight paths or decent portal access is not the whole thing. We understand you're looking for a compromise but I don't believe that will cut it on this particular topic. Please don't get me wrong, I am in love with the new zones (Gorgorond is my new favorite zone in the game by the way, that place is gorgeous and well-varied) but at max level, for your hardcore and casual playerbases alike, many of us are going to want the convenience whether it be from a lack of time or more interest in the absolutely incredible raids you've put together (this first tier is shaping up to be the best you guys have ever made). I'm not going to give some ultimatum that I'm going to unsub or anything like that but I've watched the development of of this expansion very closely and my impression of it continues to be that it will be an excellent expansion that will be unfortunately marred by a few critical mistakes in design decision. Obviously that's just my opinion but I can't help but feel that giving choice to the players is going to be the best option in this case.
08/19/2014 05:40 PMPosted by Zarhym
08/19/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Alidir
And if there is max level questing in zones at 100. Which to me sounds like another way of saying dailies. Why does it matter if I chose to get there by flying mount. I would still have to dismount to complete the objective.

Man, but having to dismount sucks. :p

Only kidding, but as far as I'm concerned you've emphasized my point about a big and dangerous world being largely ignored so you can dismount to check something off your cheat sheet and check out.


The problem with this standpoint is there are literally millions of players that play WoW and don't give two bits about immersion. Blizzard may not like that, and they shouldn't, but trying to FORCE those players to play the game in a way they don't want isn't going to solve the problem, it's just going to push those players away.

PVP players are especially unlikely to care about lore or immersion. Many, MANY of them only care about the PVP, by which I mean Arenas and RBGs.

In the end, as I've said several times today, I can see absolutely no benefits to disallowing flying at max level, and even fewer to not bringing it back in future patches.
100 Night Elf Druid
11815
08/19/2014 05:40 PMPosted by Zarhym
08/19/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Alidir
And if there is max level questing in zones at 100. Which to me sounds like another way of saying dailies. Why does it matter if I chose to get there by flying mount. I would still have to dismount to complete the objective.

Man, but having to dismount sucks. :p

Only kidding, but as far as I'm concerned you've emphasized my point about a big and dangerous world being largely ignored so you can dismount to check something off your cheat sheet and check out.


Why is that such a bad thing? I have been playing for a while and you just said earlier you want to keep some of us old timers yet you're (potentially) taking away an option some of us really like. I give you guys my monthly sub fee. Now you want to force me to experience the content the way you see fit too? I already show support for what you guys do and how well you guys do it through keeping my sub active, yet that doesn't seem good enough anymore. It's getting frustrating.
Edited by Starling on 8/19/2014 6:03 PM PDT
65 Orc Warlock
4035
08/19/2014 05:45 PMPosted by Ashalanore
These replies from you are getting frustrating Zarhym. We know you support these sorts of posts, we don't need you telling us to read them. Blue posts that don't add anything are infuriating, even more than regular posts that don't add anything


Blizzard employees are people, bro. Every single sentence typed by a CM does not need to be a substantive design statement. Get a life.


Thank You.

Everything I wanted to say myself.
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