soo ret is 85... it didnt fix it

85 Blood Elf Paladin
8055
now that ret is 85 and there is even more QQ about the spec. when can we see some buffs?
3 reasons why ret fails
RNG!
Ramp up times!
Dispel!

this spec isnt capable of being competitive above 1100 in arena in its current state.
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85 Human Paladin
3975
12/10/2010 2:01 PMPosted by Squishmittin
now that ret is 85 and there is even more QQ about the spec. when can we see some buffs?
3 reasons why ret fails
RNG!
Ramp up times!
Dispel!

this spec isnt capable of being competitive above 1100 in arena in its current state.


RNG: You're Right.
Ramp up times: You're Right.
Dispel: You're wrong.

You have these trash buffs to put on yourself:

Hand of Salvation
Righteous Fury (Spammable no mana cost)
Holy Radiance
Divine Plea.
Blessings.
Other things that increase damage or protect you from it that you'd rather not be dispelled but you'd like less than AW.

Dispels is no reason for QQ. The rest is.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7235
12/10/2010 2:11 PMPosted by Heratli
12/10/2010 2:01 PMPosted by Squishmittin
now that ret is 85 and there is even more QQ about the spec. when can we see some buffs?
3 reasons why ret fails
RNG!
Ramp up times!
Dispel!

this spec isnt capable of being competitive above 1100 in arena in its current state.


RNG: You're Right.
Ramp up times: You're Right.
Dispel: You're wrong.

You have these trash buffs to put on yourself:

Hand of Salvation
Righteous Fury (Spammable no mana cost)
Holy Radiance
Divine Plea.
Blessings.
Other things that increase damage or protect you from it that you'd rather not be dispelled but you'd like less than AW.

Dispels is no reason for QQ. The rest is.


i disagree.

Dispels need to be a dressed in general
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9130
In my opinion, Ret right now is extremely bloated. There are just way too many things happening at once.

I'd like to take a moment to compare Ret to Rogues, since it's the only other high level dps class I've had experience with.

Mutilate Rogue:
-Mutilate for CP
-SnD if it is not up
-Rupture if it is not up
-Envenom
-Cooldowns:
--Vendetta
--Cold Blood

That's about all. It's a basic system, that isn't too difficult but isn't insanely easy either.

Now for Ret:
-Use priority system to gain HP / Disregard if HoL proc
--100%
---Crusader Strike
--40%
---Judgement
---Exorcism
---Holy Wrath
-Once 3 HP
--If no Inquisition
---Inquisition
--If Inquisition
---Templar's Verdict
-Cooldowns:
-If 3 HP
--Zealotry
-Avenging Wrath
-Guardian of Ancient Kings

I mean come on.
Seriously.
You can't tell me that isn't bloated.
I didn't even get into the rotation changes for when you actually activate Zealotry and Avenging Wrath.
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85 Human Paladin
3975
You mean besides costing 2.4k or so mana?
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85 Human Paladin
3975
12/10/2010 2:18 PMPosted by Zish
In my opinion, Ret right now is extremely bloated. There are just way too many things happening at once.

I'd like to take a moment to compare Ret to Rogues, since it's the only other high level dps class I've had experience with.

Mutilate Rogue:
-Mutilate for CP
-SnD if it is not up
-Rupture if it is not up
-Envenom
-Cooldowns:
--Vendetta
--Cold Blood

That's about all. It's a basic system, that isn't too difficult but isn't insanely easy either.

Now for Ret:
-Use priority system to gain HP / Disregard if HoL proc
--100%
---Crusader Strike
--40%
---Judgement
---Exorcism
---Holy Wrath
-Once 3 HP
--If no Inquisition
---Inquisition
--If Inquisition
---Templar's Verdict
-Cooldowns:
-If 3 HP
--Zealotry
-Avenging Wrath
-Guardian of Ancient Kings

I mean come on.
Seriously.
You can't tell me that isn't bloated.
I didn't even get into the rotation changes for when you actually activate Zealotry and Avenging Wrath.


You make it longer than it needs to be.

It's largely a simple priority + whack-a-mole system

Inq>HoW>Exorcism>TV3HoPo>CS(DS 5+~mobs)>Judge>Holy Wrath>Consecration.

If you need mana use Judge.

Popping cooldowns doesn't change this rotation at all. AoW simply activates Exorcism in the chain. HoL activates TV3HoPo/Inq if needed.

You have to remember to refresh Inq with your next 3HoPo whenever it gets to 6-8 seconds. This allows for CS alone to build it but if you have HoL Procc'd and 3HoPo you TV - INQ.

Every class has to memorize small dps increase changes in prioritization.

The fact that AW and Zeal shouldn't be used together isn't necessarily a bad thing. The fact that HoL takes away from Zeal is sad but it makes it more fun than just using CS-TV-CS-TV for 20 seconds imo. Guardian of Ancient Kings should be used potentially 1s~ before Lust (if it affects it, haven't tested) and then AW 10 seconds into the GoAK for max results.)

Ret has changed SIGNIFICANTLY. Our damage isn't AUTOMATIC.

Our damage is GOOD.

I have only been significantly outdps'd by 1 hunter in full heroic gear (I'm ilvl 330).

I am usually 33.3% of my groups dps and usually significantly above some dps that are in similar gear.

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85 Human Paladin
3975
12/10/2010 2:27 PMPosted by Rennadrel
12/10/2010 2:11 PMPosted by Heratli
[quote="14059967364"]now that ret is 85 and there is even more QQ about the spec. when can we see some buffs?
3 reasons why ret fails
RNG!
Ramp up times!
Dispel!

this spec isnt capable of being competitive above 1100 in arena in its current state.


RNG: You're Right.
Ramp up times: You're Right.
Dispel: You're wrong.

You have these trash buffs to put on yourself:

Hand of Salvation
Righteous Fury (Spammable no mana cost)
Holy Radiance
Divine Plea.
Blessings.
Other things that increase damage or protect you from it that you'd rather not be dispelled but you'd like less than AW.

Dispels is no reason for QQ. The rest is.


Except, all of those so called "buffs" can be dispelled by any healing class in the game. Good job at proving you are an idiot.[/quote]

So? Put them up again and they continue to waste their mana.

This is pvp - don't expect to kill something just because you're a damage class. You have to win the long game.

If you want to win arenas - stop the other team from doing things. OOM is a fairly good form of CC.

2.4k to dispel 1 of those (you can have more than 6+ self buffed magic effects on you at the same time) makes dispelling a bad choice for anyone.
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85 Human Paladin
2340
12/10/2010 2:11 PMPosted by Heratli
12/10/2010 2:01 PMPosted by Squishmittin
now that ret is 85 and there is even more QQ about the spec. when can we see some buffs?
3 reasons why ret fails
RNG!
Ramp up times!
Dispel!

this spec isnt capable of being competitive above 1100 in arena in its current state.


RNG: You're Right.
Ramp up times: You're Right.
Dispel: You're wrong.

You have these trash buffs to put on yourself:

Hand of Salvation
Righteous Fury (Spammable no mana cost)
Holy Radiance
Divine Plea.
Blessings.
Other things that increase damage or protect you from it that you'd rather not be dispelled but you'd like less than AW.

Dispels is no reason for QQ. The rest is.


See, you have to be trolling. Spamming righteous fury to avoid dispels is exploit level stupidity. If the devs intend for every good cooldown ret has to be dispellable, they are unbelievable. The one thing i doubt even more than that though is that they expect you to spam junk buffs to avoid getting dispelled.
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90 Human Paladin
7915
12/10/2010 2:11 PMPosted by Heratli
12/10/2010 2:01 PMPosted by Squishmittin
now that ret is 85 and there is even more QQ about the spec. when can we see some buffs?
3 reasons why ret fails
RNG!
Ramp up times!
Dispel!

this spec isnt capable of being competitive above 1100 in arena in its current state.


RNG: You're Right.
Ramp up times: You're Right.
Dispel: You're wrong.

You have these trash buffs to put on yourself:

Hand of Salvation
Righteous Fury (Spammable no mana cost)
Holy Radiance
Divine Plea.
Blessings.
Other things that increase damage or protect you from it that you'd rather not be dispelled but you'd like less than AW.

Dispels is no reason for QQ. The rest is.


Dispels hurt Ret a lot more than most other specs (though it's not the only spec) - and it is not about what we can put up as trash - it is more that pretty much EVERYTHING regarding Rets combat mechanics can be dispelled - when dispels cost nothing to use (despite the Dev's statements to the contrary) then it really hurts the specs who are most vulnerable to them, including Ret...
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85 Human Paladin
3975
12/10/2010 2:37 PMPosted by Maximillian
See, you have to be trolling. Spamming righteous fury to avoid dispels is exploit level stupidity. If the devs intend for every good cooldown ret has to be dispellable, they are unbelievable. The one thing i doubt even more than that though is that they expect you to spam junk buffs to avoid getting dispelled.


Yet somehow it's the reason I won 50% of my 2s games in the top 20 in my old bg last season.

The way you counter slows is cleansing or Freedom. The way you counter silences is Aura Mastery or JUKING. The way you stop damage is shields or LINE OF SIGHTING. The way you counter dispels is silences or TRASH BUFFS. There is a reason we would buff Fire Shield, Thorns, Underwater Breathing, etc before arenas. This is it. To avoid Dispels. It's tested. It works. Intentional or not, use it. Win.

12/10/2010 2:33 PMPosted by Rennadrel
No, our damage is terrible. 30% less then other DPS specs and classes, and even less then warrior tanks, is in no damn way considered "good". Honestly, just stop posting because clearly you know nothing about Ret if you think our damage is good. Our AoE is gone cause Divine Storm isn't even worth a talent point anymore, Holy Wrath hits like a girl with a broken arm, Consecrate does little damage and eats mana like crazy.


I am not having this dps issue. I'm always #1 on damage done a solid 20% above the tank and usually 10%~ above others. With very good players sometimes I'm 2-3 but not by more than a few percentage points. You HAVE to do the math. Peruse Elitist Jerks forums. Just because we aren't an AoE class means nothing - Consecration is one of our only 'mana eating' spells. HoW takes nothing glyphed. AoW procs cost no mana. CS costs crap. Judgement leaves us at 100% mana without using Consecration. Use it. Increase your damage if the price is right.



[quote="14063066442"][quote="14063565468"]Dispel: You're wrong.

You have these trash buffs to put on yourself:

Hand of Salvation
Righteous Fury (Spammable no mana cost)
Holy Radiance
Divine Plea.
Blessings.
Other things that increase damage or protect you from it that you'd rather not be dispelled but you'd like less than AW.

Dispels is no reason for QQ. The rest is.[/quote]

Wait, are you serious?

Edit: You can say the same for every class.
Fact is, you have to spend GCD's applying these (they cost mana and have cooldowns) when the healer is actively dispelling them as you cast them, making your time, mana, and cooldowns be 100% wasted.

BTW, holy radiance costs 5k mana. Using that as dispell protection makes you a scrub.[/quote]

When the healer is actively dispelling them as you cast them he's not healing. My Righteous fury has no mana cost or cooldown - glyphed my Blessings have little mana cost and a small cooldown. I'm not concerned with sacrificing my Hand of Salvation cooldown and I'm simply listing Holy Radiance as a potential trash buff. It's not overly useful in PvP, but I agree it's probably not necessary after the other 4 easy trash buffs you can put up.
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85 Human Paladin
3975
12/10/2010 2:48 PMPosted by Trimagestis
12/10/2010 2:11 PMPosted by Heratli
[quote="14059967364"]now that ret is 85 and there is even more QQ about the spec. when can we see some buffs?
3 reasons why ret fails
RNG!
Ramp up times!
Dispel!

this spec isnt capable of being competitive above 1100 in arena in its current state.


RNG: You're Right.
Ramp up times: You're Right.
Dispel: You're wrong.

You have these trash buffs to put on yourself:

Hand of Salvation
Righteous Fury (Spammable no mana cost)
Holy Radiance
Divine Plea.
Blessings.
Other things that increase damage or protect you from it that you'd rather not be dispelled but you'd like less than AW.

Dispels is no reason for QQ. The rest is.


Dispels hurt Ret a lot more than most other specs (though it's not the only spec) - and it is not about what we can put up as trash - it is more that pretty much EVERYTHING regarding Rets combat mechanics can be dispelled - when dispels cost nothing to use (despite the Dev's statements to the contrary) then it really hurts the specs who are most vulnerable to them, including Ret...[/quote]

Dispels cost a very lot to use, but the price is very much worth it (especially spellsteal) if we don't even make the smallest attempt to put trash buffs on ourselves. However...speaking of arena situations after such drastic situations is always going to be what we SEE happening and not what WILL happen. I don't think it's practical for us to say we know.

However...you are correct in that just about everything we have is a magic buff. Art of War included with Freedom, Divine Shield, AW, Holy Radiance et cetera.
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85 Human Paladin
6180
The Ret rotation is too much. Period.
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