The "You must not top people off" thing.

85 Undead Priest
10630
I'm hearing this over and over again. Healers (mainly in the priests forums since we seem to be the problem at the moment) saying "forget the WOTLK philosophy, don't top everyone off, 60-75% is OK".

At this point I feel I must say thing - This very idea annoys me greatly. The idea of players topped off, healthy and green is NOT a 'WOTLK mindset". It has been something that's been going on in every MMO since the dawn of time. Hell, in almost every GAME that gives you some sort of a health bar. Even in WCIII you'll want your hero to be in the green before creeping. You rest up, get a full bar, then run off to fight stuff. Everyone will generally want to be full (or near full like 90-95%) before powering off to progression stuff. But nevermind that, even for WOW, healers have been in the habit to simply keep bars topped off since WoW Vanilla BETA (nevermind WOTLK). It's just NATURE.

I'm not so sure about the other vet healers out there. But to me, as a healer that has been healing since Vanilla, seeing healthy green bars, and the whole "you have the power to push them from red to yellow to green" s the part of the 'fun'. I enjoy seeing everyone's neat green bars nicely topped off and healthy. It bothers me if somebody is not topped off into the green. To a point that if I see somebody not topped off running around in ironforge/Orgrimmar, I would chuck a heal their way to just top it off. I get a nice 'ty' or whatever. It is like seeing the fruits of my 'labour'...however strange that sounds. Sorta like seeing big numbers as DPS, or as a tank, laugh as somebody with a big club runs up and slams you for a whopping 1HP.

So to see people right here, right now, say "in order to heal, you must not top people off or you OOM and die" - that just goes against my blood as a healer. That's like saying blizz giving a quest that says "In order to complete this quest you need to fetch 6/10 bear asses and not 10/10.". Sure it can technically work but who the !**@ does that?! If the quest requires 6 bear asses, it would be 6/6 and not 6/10. Otherwise it's just...not complete.

Now maybe this is just what the 'pro healers' are saying given the situation we are in. Or perhaps this is really what Blizz really intends us healers to do - cherry pick and keep everyone in the yellow and not green in order to pull a win in dungeons - of course for most of us, it's "struggle to even stay in the yellow and not dead". And if that is the case, I have to express my utter disappointment in this 'new' philosophy we're being introduced to. As a healer that's been healing since WoW beta, I have to say...

HEALTH BARS...ARE MEANT...TO BE FULL...

Just as...

MOB HP BARS...ARE MEANT...TO BE ZEROED...

But that is me, being with slightly insane healing mentality.

Thoughts?
Edited by Zamboozle on 12/11/2010 12:48 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
Health bars used to have to be full cause if they weren't tanks were likely to die in two hits.

This clearly isn't the model anymore.
It's just your ocd kicking in at this point:)
I know cause I got the same thing. Just takes some getting used to, don't worry.
Topping off is a thing of the past. Most heroic fights my groups finish with everyone about 25-30% health. It's how it is. We live, boss is dead, all is right with the world:)
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4595
It's entirely possible and fine to keep people topped off (or nearly so), in my experience. I'm not sure how people are even beating some of the encounters with people at "25-30%." If you've let things snowball that far, how did you even beat the encounter? I typically end heroic fights with most of the group at nearly full health, rarely ever below 50% for multiple people. People generally seesaw between 100 and 50% before being topped up.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Priest
10630
I think it's perfectly fine if the fight ends with the group in mid HP and its a win. Even in WOTLK nobody makes it out of a raid 100% green (lol heroic sindragosa).

What I have a problem with is people saying "You must not top everyone off". By all means, if your goal is to keep everyone at 60%, why is it not possible to keep everyone at 90%?

I do not like the new 'philosophy' at the moment - should it be true. It really sucks the sense of completion and 'fun' out of healing. That and after every fight you end up having to dump a full mana bar or two to top everyone off ANYWAY so the group can run into another fight to crawl back out at as you say, 25%-30%.

HP bars used to have to be topped off people the chance of an instant gib is high, but who the hell runs into a progression boss encounter rocking 60% saying "this is OK, no worries" and then people going "yeah just keep him at 60%, it's fine". There is no sense of completion. It just feels...'forced half assed".

Of course right now, I am a priest and anyone looking down the priest forum will know we have some problems. At the moment keeping people topped off to even in green (not full) is a feat (a miracle if you happen to be disc). I have faith that Blizz will tweak and adjust. But this thread is not about class rants (god knows we have enough of that already). And this thread is to just...talk about the whole healing philosophy thing.

I'm firmly in the school of "if 60% is where everyone should be at, how about we lower the 90k 130K HP pools everyone is rocking at the moment instead of making everything look half done?" department. Give me my sense of completion back =|
Edited by Zamboozle on 12/11/2010 1:03 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Troll Priest
7090
I agree. I enjoy the mana management but I dislike the small heals - when I start using the expensive stuff the health bars still barely budge. It makes me sad and frustrated even though someone dying is rare. Every fight feels like a 'barely made it.'

Healing is at once tedious and frenetic. Haven't decided how much longer I'll give it to adjust.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
It's entirely possible and fine to keep people topped off (or nearly so), in my experience. I'm not sure how people are even beating some of the encounters with people at "25-30%." If you've let things snowball that far, how did you even beat the encounter? I typically end heroic fights with most of the group at nearly full health, rarely ever below 50% for multiple people. People generally seesaw between 100 and 50% before being topped up.


I've been doing the drake achievements on heroics. I'd love to see you finish with full bars trying to do those. We usually get it done by the skin of our teeth. It's fun:)
Reply Quote
85 Undead Priest
10630
I enjoy hard content where we win 'by the skin of our teeth'. There is a sense of accomplishment in that...especially for the first 1-2 tries. But I do not enjoy finishing every single fight (even trash packs) with everyone at 10% and having it as the norm. For one thing, it makes you feel inadequate, for another, it gives you no good indication of how 'good' you are when everyone is a mob spit away from dying. It is nerve wracking and does no good to your blood pressure.

That, and it also means you have to dump several manabars to fill everyone back up (and drink back up several times), just so you can do it all over again...
Edited by Zamboozle on 12/11/2010 1:09 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
Uh...skin of our teeth applies to drake achievements on heroics. Not trash.
I have no trouble keeping everyone topped up on trash. Occasionally if the pull goes bad, a few dps may dip low or I may even pop a cd. But most of the time I can do 3-4 pulls on heroic before I have to sit down and drink. On heroic.
On normal, I don't drink on trash anymore though I did when I was first running normals.
You gear up and adjust to the healing model very quickly.
I'm running heroics on 4th day.
In another week, this whole discussion will be moot as people will be a lot more geared, mobs will go down faster and you'll have far less trouble keeping everyone up.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Shaman
8020
The idea of not top off is, in my view, somewhat badly represented.

In Wrath it was entirely possible to simply blast out AOE heals and keep everyone at full health. Even with just me healing, I could keep the tank up and most of the DPS without any trouble in 10 man content. It wasn't easy, but it was possible. (25 wasn't the case, but if I'm the only healer left there, it was over.)

Here you have to accept 'well, that DPS doesn't need a heal right now. If I get a break after this next burst damage spike, I'll toss a HOT on him, and if he doesn't hit full, no big deal'. If someone isn't in danger of dying and shouldn't be taking heavy damage, then you should allow a HOT or the occasional highly efficient heal to do the job. No need to break out the big heal bombs.

Also, and perhaps more importantly, this philosophy is much more a message to the DPS than to the healers. It says 'don't take damage if you can avoid it'. A lot of damage sources are avoidable, but most DPS don't actually do the work to avoid it because it means a drop in DPS.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4595
12/11/2010 1:03 AMPosted by Sedivy
It's entirely possible and fine to keep people topped off (or nearly so), in my experience. I'm not sure how people are even beating some of the encounters with people at "25-30%." If you've let things snowball that far, how did you even beat the encounter? I typically end heroic fights with most of the group at nearly full health, rarely ever below 50% for multiple people. People generally seesaw between 100 and 50% before being topped up.


I've been doing the drake achievements on heroics. I'd love to see you finish with full bars trying to do those. We usually get it done by the skin of our teeth. It's fun:)


Fairly certain I could come close. I got Too Hot to Handle and everyone ended the fight over 70% (and I'm sure you could just cheese it by doing it when he's low on health if you can't handle that). I healed a tank through 70% of Umbriss with him getting modgud's every single time because we just aoe'd the troggs on him because we didn't understand the encounter. Others mileage my vary - in your case it clearly does. And no one else in my guild can queue heroics yet, so I'm playing with people I've never played with - must be a lot easier if you're in a better situation.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
Yeeee.....no.
Try Acrocalypse Now in Lost City or I Hate That Song in HoO or To the Ground in SFK.
Reply Quote
85 Worgen Druid
6985
Have to agree with the point made about health bars not moving even with the expensive heals. Right now I think my biggest heal to date was like 37k. Considering my biggest heal at 80 pre-cata was like 30k, more or less and health bars have basically tripled since then, a 7k bump in max heal isn't really much. I mean my spell power has almost doubled buy my heals certainly don't reflect that.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Priest
10630
I would give an arm to have a out of combat full heal just to keep things going in dungeons, really >.> But yes, I agree that our heals at the moment can use a bump. Something substantial perhaps, enough to y'know..actually notice the grid box move. Hehe
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4595
12/11/2010 1:29 AMPosted by Sedivy
Yeeee.....no.
Try Acrocalypse Now in Lost City or I Hate That Song in HoO or To the Ground in SFK.


And no one else in my guild can queue heroics yet, so I'm playing with people I've never played with - must be a lot easier if you're in a better situation.


zzz
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
I never said it wasn't better in a guild group.
I'm just saying they're very hard achievements at this point in progression and you'd be wise to try them out yourself before telling me we're supposed to end it with full bars and you can do it better lol.
Edited by Sedivy on 12/11/2010 1:40 AM PST
Reply Quote
29 Worgen Priest
160
I totally hear you on that mindset OP. As it stands I am avoiding leveling my resto druid because of all the horror-talk of 85 dungeons. AOE boss damage isn't fun CCing groups can be fun and manageable. I think they need to amp up the power of heals to reflect mana cost.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
4620
As a very experienced pally healer, I totally agree with the OP.

I think Sedivy says to not top people off because he is seeing the mana issues, too. However, letting your groupmates sit at 50% is hardly the answer. The OP's reply about "why not keep them at 90%?" is spot on. If the aim is to not top them off, why not keep them at 80-90%. 10% of a life bar at level 85 is at least 10,000 HP. I sure as hell don't know of any splash heals hitting for 10k right now that would result in accidental overhealing. Sedivy may be a good healer and may be able to get his groups farther than most healers, but I can do the same and I for one readily admit its freaking skin-of-my-teeth every fight with "hold on a sec, mana" in group chat after most pulls.

Like the OP said, I'm so sick of the "change your mindset" rhetoric going around with regards to cata healing. If we're all supposed to be re-thinking the way we do healing, why are we all sitting on the exact same heal (fast and expensive, medium and moderate, slow and heavy) spells that we've had for the last 5 years?


Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
Why keep them at 90%? This isn't wrath where one big hit could kill you. In that model it made sense to top the people off.
Keeping them at 50% is the answer here because you don't lose health as quickly anymore. DPS sitting at 50% is just fine and will live until I find time/mana to top him off. If I finish the fight with everyone at 50%, that's 50% health worth of mana that I don't really have to top them off during a fight. But who cares. I can do it after. We finish the fight, boss is dead, loot drops. What else matters really?

We are having same spells (though some are new) in total but really, when did you ever use Heal in raid content before cata? What's Chakra state and Holy Word if not totally new model?
Edited by Sedivy on 12/11/2010 1:55 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
11845
The reason why you don't spend the mana to top people off is because it increases your longevity on the tank a great deal. People consider themselves great healers but have difficulty understanding how to squeeze the juice out of their mana pool when it counts.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]