Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting

85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
01/07/2011 4:35 PMPosted by Nampal
Hi Lylthe, besides the Theorycrafting, do you have any idea how WorldofLogs rank the player? In order to be ranked, dps or hps has to push themselves over 100% limit, which I'm hovering around 90% at 10.5 hps.


Ignore holy paladin WoL rankings. The paladins that stacked haste and spammed HL and LoD before the big hotfix were doing outrageously well. At this point we will very likely not compete against those inflated numbers until heroic gear or even 4.1.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4475
Haste > Mastery.

One more time. Crit scaling is about as low as mastery so yeah, 1:1 is not a bad suggestion.

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6 Troll Shaman
0
Updated spec a little bit. Filling out Protector of the Innocent is better than filling out Last Word.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8650
01/11/2011 9:20 AMPosted by Lylthe
Updated spec a little bit. Filling out Protector of the Innocent is better than filling out Last Word.


Thought filling out PotI was a no-brainer, and Last Word isn't too bad to fill out either. Not many other exciting talents besides the Judgement range increase when you get down to the final points.

Although I haven't done the math, common sense tells me this. Then again, your spec also gives 2 points of wiggle room, allowing the player to choose to fill out Last Word, Enlightened Judgements, put a point in Imp Judgements, or Blessed Life.
Edited by Rayocell on 1/11/2011 11:54 AM PST
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6 Troll Shaman
0
When I originally developed that spec, I didn't account for PotI transferring to the beacon, and I never really looked at the spec again until a few days ago. Bouncing it around in my head, yeah PotI becomes common sense over Last Word. If PotI was only self-healing, I'd recommend Last Word (don't stand in fire!). But with beacon transfers, PotI wins.

The PotI vs. Last Word is more for spec development and juggling talent point #10 to get to tier 3.

For the filler points, I'd recommend 1/2 Blessed Life and 1/2 Imp Judgements. But those are quality of life talents and there's room for wiggle.
Edited by Lylthe on 1/11/2011 1:02 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7975
01/11/2011 1:01 PMPosted by Lylthe
When I originally developed that spec, I didn't account for PotI transferring to the beacon, and I never really looked at the spec again until a few days ago. Bouncing it around in my head, yeah PotI becomes common sense over Last Word. If PotI was only self-healing, I'd recommend Last Word (don't stand in fire!). But with beacon transfers, PotI wins.

The PotI vs. Last Word is more for spec development and juggling talent point #10 to get to tier 3.

For the filler points, I'd recommend 1/2 Blessed Life and 1/2 Imp Judgements. But those are quality of life talents and there's room for wiggle.


4.0.6 will see a 30% nerf to PoI, does this still hold?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
1995
Just wanted to say thankyou! I haven't been the best healer recently and you post shows me me why. I never did heroics in WotLK or raids. Did one heroic in cata with a friend got OWNED. Lol felt so shameful I apologized for wasting the people's time and tuck my tail under my legs and ran. Again thanks for your awesome post!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8650
I'd still say PotI is a great talent to fill out, since it saves your healers mana from having to heal you as much.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4420
hi Lylthe, any updated info about changes in the upcoming patch?

# Forbearance
* The duration has been lowered to 1 minute, down from 2.
* Lay on Hands now causes Forbearance on the target. It used to only cause it when cast on the paladin.
* This was an old design from when Divine Protection caused Forbearance and the paladin didn't want to prevent a tank from using their defensive cooldown.
* Lay on Hands cannot be a critical effect and will not be affected by most abilities which modify healing (such as Beacon of Light).
* Since only Divine Shield, Lay on Hands and Hand of Protection cause Forbearance, the tooltips have been adjusted to better explain the mechanic.
Holy
* Protector of the Innocent heals for 30% less.

So no heal coming from LoH on BoL target? 30% on PotL would affect us significantly?
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Regarding the Conviction bug, I got a message from a GM saying that the issue has been addressed. I assume that means Blizzard is aware and will eventually fix it with a patch or hotfix.

I recently tested Conviction today, and it still seems broken. Now while this bug is kind of annoying, I'm honestly really worried about Holy Paladins now. If we're doing as well as we are with a broken Conviction, once it get's fixed... we might end up a bit OP. Nerf "to the ground" incoming?

Even post 4.0.6 PotI should be better than Last Word. Last Word is a nice save, but over the long term, PotI should be doing more healing unless we're consistently seeing people sit sub 35% (i.e. you may wish for a Chimaeron specific spec that includes Last Word).

The self-healing, is nice, but really secondary to beacon healing, which is almost always useful.

Right now for me, it's adding about 900 healing/talent point per heal onto the tank. That's not game breaking, but it's still really nice. Even dropping that down to ~600 healing/talent point per heal, it's still a good investment.

The other stuff I don't see fundamentally changing our playstyle. LoH heals enough I honestly don't care that it won't crit anymore, unless we're going back to do dreamwalker. The beacon transfering LoH was admittedly a bit OP. In fact, I ended up saving the tank on accident using this on Magmaw. I was trying to save a DPS and the tank got hit by mangle pretty hard at the same time :P

Forbearance doesn't really change anything, since we almost never used HoP and LoH on the same target back to back.

If you PvP with a lot of paladin teammates, then yeah, it's a bigger nerf.
Edited by Lylthe on 1/11/2011 11:41 PM PST
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Updated spec to including Convictionless version.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Ran out of space on the first page, and I wanted to talk more about Spell Selection:

Expected K = (1 + .05 SoI + 1.15 WitL) * 1.06 Divinity * 1.09 Conviction = 1.38648

Spell Statistics
Holy Shock
Instant, 6 sec CD
1873 Mana
2629-2847 (2738 Avg)
SP Coeff: 0.269
Modified K by Crusade: 1.7331

Holy Light
2.5 Sec
2107 Mana
4163 - 4637 (4400 Avg)
SP Coeff: 0.432

Divine Light
2.5 Sec
7026 Mana
11100-12366 (11733 Avg)
SP Coeff: 1.153

Flash of Light
1.5 Sec
6323 Mana
6907-7749 (7328 Avg)
SP Coeff: 0.863

PRE HOTFIX NUMBERS! ESTIMATE BY REDUCING 40%
Light of Dawn Per Holy Power Per Person
Instant
1009-1123 (1066 Average)
SP Coeff: 0.220132 (Notice it's bigger than unglyphed WoG. This is why it got nerfed)
Post Nerf Estimate: LoD = 0.831888 * (1066 + 0.220132*SP)

Word of Glory Per Holy Power, Unglyphed
Instant
Base Range: 2018-2248 (2133 Average)
SP Coeff: 0.209
Modified K by Glyph: 1.50202

Holy Radiance Per Tick Per Person and under 8 yards and 6 or less people
Instant, 30 sec CD
9368 Mana
Base Range: 683
SP Coeff: 0.0672

Haste adds ticks. EJ did all the math for me!
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110847-holy_cataclysm_holy_compendium/#Healing_Spells

Protector of the Innocent Per Talent Point.
1241-1427 (1334 Average)
SP Coeff: 0.0259
Edited by Lylthe on 1/12/2011 12:55 PM PST
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Based upon EJ:
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

Aura Mastery + Devotion Aura
Devotion Aura (base @ 85) 4076 Armor

For a level 88 boss hitting a level 85 tank:
DR% @ 85 = Armor / (Armor + 32572.5) (This puts diminishing returns on armor)
Note that paper doll may assume attacker is level 85, not 88.

The tank for my guild has 36061 Armor. With Devo, that's 40137 Armor, 55.20% reduction. With AM, that's 44213 Armor, 57.58% reduction.


Aura Mastery + Retribution Aura (lawl)
Not exactly sure, because I don't have SP/AP coefficients. But it's really small.

Aura Mastery + Resistance Aura
I'm not very happy with these numbers because I have concerns with EJ's #'s. First, there's a discontinuity in level constants from 60-70, which has me a bit worried. Next, EJ really just needs to say the constant at caster level 88 is 724 instead of making me count through 88 lines.
Assume the player has 0 resistance on gear (generally true)
@85 - 195 Resistance from Aura
Against level 88 caster,
Avg Dmg reduction = R/(R+C), C=724
21.21% Dmg reduction

Under AM
Avg Reduction = 35.00%

Concentration Aura+AM
AFAIK, the first hit adds .5 sec of cast time. The 2nd hit adds another .5 sec of cast time. Any hits beyond that add no time. However, I believe its an undocumented benefit that healers (at least paladins) have the old talent Spiritual Focus (reduces pushback by 70% for healing spells) inherent to the tree.

Only applies to direct damage, again, no consistent definition of "direct damage".

Interrupt abilities from bosses are very finicky. I don't know which can and which can't be prevented by AM. (Example, shouting trash in ICC couldn't be prevented by AM+Conc in 3.3.5)

With Conc, pushback = 0.35 sec, With AM, pushback = 0.15 sec.

Actual DPS increase is dependent on spell being cast and the kind of damage incoming.

Summary
AM+Devotion ~2.4% Physical Damage reduction
AM+Retribution Aura - lol
AM+Resistance Aura - ~13.8% Magic Reduction to appropriate school
AM+Concentration Aura - Interrupt immunity, 0.2 sec pushback reduction
AM+Crusader Aura - Mounted sprint

TL/DR: Use AM with Resistance Aura
Edited by Lylthe on 1/14/2011 2:54 PM PST
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6 Troll Shaman
0
You got it.

Forgot to mention, auras have a 40 yard radius.

Basically if they're out of heal range, they're out of aura range.

Aura Mastery is OFF the global cooldown.
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85 Tauren Paladin
4815
Hi, I've seen so many thoughts and suggestions on different websites so I thought I would ask here. Obviously int is our number one priority, but my question is should we worry more about our mana regen before actual haste. I myself seem to find crit not to be doing so well yet and the mastery absorption looks like it could be good but better worried about after you get the proper amounts of mp5/haste from your gear, would love some feedback/replies very open to any suggestions to my spec/gemming/glyphs etc.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
Bubblesteak - In my experience if you want to output as much healing as possible for as long as possible the only route is to stack stats in this order:

Intellect
Spirit
Haste (to comfort, or in my opinion to 6%)
Mastery & Crit equally

In raids, especially 25 mans, tanks and the raid are going to be taking a LOT of damage. This means big healing output constantly for the whole fight. Spirit is the best stat after intellect for this.

-----

On another note, I have been watching the performance of Mastery in my raids and in most cases it performs on not only an acceptable level, but a great one. Almost every meter puts it decently high on my list at around 8% of total healing done, which is right around 50% effectiveness (I have ~16% mastery shielding currently).

Just another confirmation my numbers are solid (for my healing style at least).
Edited by Rabel on 1/15/2011 1:56 AM PST
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
460
At 50% effectiveness, mastery rival's Crit for the worst stat, and this is an acceptable level?
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
At 50% effectiveness, mastery rival's Crit for the worst stat, and this is an acceptable level?
Haste only increases your output, and forces you to spend more mana thus reducing your ability to last through longer fights. Nobody seems keen on doing the math here but me, and I don't really care that much because I trust my instinct on the matter.

The only math I have done is pretty iffy - but for Holy Light casts (the only efficiency increase Haste can possibly give) Haste needs something in the range of 0.166% extra regen per 1% Haste to make up for the loss. I don't have 100% confidence in my math here keep in mind... that's just what I figured out for Holy Light, and all other spells are less efficient so you'll be needing more than that to make up the difference if you use other spells.

0.166% doesn't seem like much but realize that its 0.166% for EVERY 1% you add, and thats a percentage of your regen, which is a rather high number. For my own raid buffed stats as an example, my 6.12% Haste may be requiring something like 40 Mp5 to cover for it, which I haven't figured out a reversed formula to calculate spirit need from mp5 yet...

And that's if I do nothing but spam Holy Light. The moment I use a less efficient spell that extra stat requirement skyrockets. Maybe I'll try to do the math behind Flash of Light (our least efficient spell) to see how crazy it can get, though I'm sure someone will say Haste stackers NEVER use Flash of Light (which makes some sense).

As far as the value of Crit and Mastery - they're not only an increase in HPS like Haste (certainly less valuable, but an increase none the less) they are an increase in efficiency. In my limited raid experience in 25N's you want every ounce of longevity and output you can get - the best way to do that is stack Int, Spirit, Mastery and Crit.

At 50% of their face value these stats still provide quite a lot of healing output. Recall my 8% healing from Illuminated Healing? That's significant. On Halfus it was 8.8% of my healing, and was my ***5TH BEST SOURCE OF HEALING*** for the fight. No joke, effective healing it output was higher than Holy Radiance. Of course HR had 65% overheal for the fight... and Illuminated Healing was being used by the tanks constantly... but this is why I said a ways back that Paladin's still belong in the tank healing niche we've had since BC.
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