Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting


p.s. Say hey to Heartshine and all the other Tanaris xfers! Coag still spend most of the raid offline? =P

p.s.s. Oooh, anyone else thinking of trying Power Torrent in 4.2? (more likely heroic gear) I was thinking maybe stacking it with plea every now and then to compensate. Maybe plea+wings if there is still some damage going out. I'll have to look at it's up time a bit more, but it seems Heartsong might be loosing some value with increased spirit on gear.


Will do =) I almost made a comment about "ZOMG Are you the pally with the WORLD FASTEST H-MAGMAW Kill!?!" lol. I'm in our 10 man, but I think Coag is doing a good job even with the "slurps" and his other . . .umm entertainment qualitites.

I've been using Power Torrent simply becuase I have felt like I have an excess amount of spirit. I can't say it has made any sort of playstyle change for me, but I do prefer it over heartsong, and it looks even more attractive going forward.

As for H-Al'akir. I know resetting stacks in P2 is a pretty big advantage but with our self-healing is it a requirement to save it for this? Like, if you DON'T reset stacks are you going to be in any more danger of dying than the other 9 people in your raid?

Edit: By the way what are you best attempts on H-Al'akir? I could just stop being lazy and look at your logs, but I figured asking would be easier =)



Most of our attempts were ending at about 82-86%, but we only got ~14 attempts in I think? Did a bit of going in and checking on positioning though that I think will help. Also, make sure to talk to coag about how you have ESPN or something. (Mean Girls reference).
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In reference to the spec listed, there's only 1/2 Enlightened Judgements and no improved judements from the ret tree.

This makes positioning closer to the boss a must, as your judgements will only be like 15 yards, is that any kind of issue?

I just started healing on my shaman, but i'm usually sitting back with the hunters, it feels comfortable and even a bit safer.

I'm going to start leveling my paladin and was just wondering if I should get used to being cozy with the melee in the group rather than the ranged? i.e. there is no viable/optimum way to switch points around to get the 40 yard judgements.

Thank you
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6 Troll Shaman
0
The spec has 2 floater points. I personally run w/ 1/2 EJ and 1/2 IJ. That's a 25 yard judge and works great for me.

If you were a holy paladin in WotLK you're used to being in melee and most of the time I am in melee.

I did find a 15 yard judge somewhat short, but 25 yards has been plenty for me. 35 is pretty easy to swing if you want to drop 1/2 Blessed Life. 40 is overkill.
Edited by Lylthe on 3/31/2011 10:50 AM PDT
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
I miss actual theorycraft discussion from this thread.

I may have been annoying, but at least I compelled y'all to keep doing the numbers yeah? :D
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Rofl, that was you Adt? I thought it was someone trying to sell me gold. Sorry, I don't give out my real ID unless I know the person outside of WoW. My GM's been bugging me too :P

There hasn't really been any need for serious number crunching. 15 yards vs. 66% chance to generate HP. Pick which one you see more often in your raid setup.

If we want to crunch numbers, it should be pure int gems vs hybrids. My prelim math supported pure int, but it's not perfect. The bigger issue is that the differences are too damn small to really tell. And they do different things. Reflexes, ping, etc. will have a larger effect than gemming pure int vs. int hybrids. The deltas are probably similiar to DPS situations, but DPS don't have time-limited windows (normally at least) to do DPS, nor do they have maximum DPS limits to consider.

Honestly though, my guild isn't really setup for progression level raiding and I don't see that changing in the near future. I may not be the best person to keep this up to date as major content patches start going through, but I'll play it by ear.
Edited by Lylthe on 4/4/2011 12:54 AM PDT
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1 Human Rogue
0
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#scIbzrkuubdhZcbM

the correct spec if raiding in 25 man environments. Possibly even 10 mans

WoG is not even worth it since most if not all fights require stacking on top for aoe heals. Tower of raidiance is roffle for 3 points. It's rare where just 1 person (beacon'd tank) in the raid is taking damage and if this is the case you usually just holy light spam


edit - btw what would you guys use between these trinkets;
Tyrande's doll
Tsunami
Core of Ripeness
Jar of Ancient remedies

?

Tsunami + Tyrande's? I dunno im lost
Edited by Stealthy on 4/7/2011 11:37 AM PDT
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6 Troll Shaman
0
I'm not going to tell people to stop getting ToR. If you personally can operate without it, great. Just make sure you know what you're giving up. The extra 10 yards from IJ really isn't needed. I'd rather have an actual healing talent. Especially if you're advocating stacking up on the raid. And I find it hard to find situations where you're going to get hit often enough 2/2 BL will benefit without hitting the 6 sec CD.

There are enough fights where the tank DOES need heals. My Nefarion tank needed direct heals. My Cho'Gall tank needed direct heals. And I haven't talked to anyone that's used beacon swaps to raid heal.

And I don't know why you're against Eternal Glory. I almost every log I have, EG's beaten both BL and ToR for HP generation. You SHOULD have it. A very common WoW mechanic is "Spread out". You're going to use WoG. I guess the extra 7% PoJ speed bonus relative to the boot enchant is nice, but EG is better. It's a direct heal bonus.

Get Tyrande's+Tsunami. I've done the math, but I don't really feel like digging it up again.

EDIT: I think Core of Ripeness beats Tsunami by a VERY small margin on regen, but that's when used on CD. If you fail to use it on CD by 10-15 seconds, Tsunami wins. I'd have to dig my old numbers up to give you exact figures.
Edited by Lylthe on 4/7/2011 12:51 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
5705
If I raided 25 man I would definitely try out that spec. Right now though, WoG is typically my 3rd or 4th highest heal so Eternal Glory is too important. And ToR is still beneficial and worth 3 points for most encounters in 10 man, especially considering how high my WoG is on total healing done.

As for trinkets, most likely Tsunami and Tyrande's. I'm sure an argument could be made for Core over 1 of those, and I love my Core of Ripeness, but I don't know if you can beat those two. I refused to replace even my Witching Hourglass with Jar. Never liked it.
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1 Human Rogue
0
I'm not going to tell people to stop getting ToR. If you personally can operate without it, great. Just make sure you know what you're giving up. The extra 10 yards from IJ really isn't needed. I'd rather have an actual healing talent. Especially if you're advocating stacking up on the raid. And I find it hard to find situations where you're going to get hit often enough 2/2 BL will benefit without hitting the 6 sec CD.

There are enough fights where the tank DOES need heals. My Nefarion tank needed direct heals. My Cho'Gall tank needed direct heals. And I haven't talked to anyone that's used beacon swaps to raid heal.

And I don't know why you're against Eternal Glory. I almost every log I have, EG's beaten both BL and ToR for HP generation. You SHOULD have it. A very common WoW mechanic is "Spread out". You're going to use WoG. I guess the extra 7% PoJ speed bonus relative to the boot enchant is nice, but EG is better. It's a direct heal bonus.

Get Tyrande's+Tsunami. I've done the math, but I don't really feel like digging it up again.

EDIT: I think Core of Ripeness beats Tsunami by a VERY small margin on regen, but that's when used on CD. If you fail to use it on CD by 10-15 seconds, Tsunami wins. I'd have to dig my old numbers up to give you exact figures.



Thanks for the trinket advice

But, You can still use WoG without that rng talent. Pursuit of Justice is pretty OP. Again, most if not all encounters require kiting/moving. As a holy paladin you want to get to your spot asap and start nuking heals again.

ToR is a waste for 3 point in my opinion. It's too many because it is very rare when you actually heal your beacon. Usually my beacon lies on whoever I am not assigned to heal and give the tank I am assigned to direct heals, especially on fights like heroic nef + chogall
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6 Troll Shaman
0
If you know what you're doing, and you really want to drop 3/3 ToR, go for it. For most people, I just don't believe the trade off is worth it.

I unfortunately don't have my own logs to back this stuff up. This could be completely wrong for heroic modes since my guild's basically stopped progression for the last month and a half.

That said, I'll try to be as unbiased as possible when discussing the differences. First, I will flat out agree that ToR sucks. I don't like it, but I'm afraid that the alternatives are even worse.

I believe everyone can safely agree that building the talent tree to: (27 points into holy)
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#scIozrkuub

is the way to go.

This is the first ToR vs. BL choice. I'd agree with 1/2 BL, but I'd need some good logs to convince me that 2/2 BL is significant HP generation. 2/2 seems like a completely wasted point. Likewise, so does 2/2 Last Word. 2/2 Last Word is even worse if we accept your argument that WoG is mostly replaced with LoD.

So the difference we're talking here is 2/3 ToR or 2/2 BL+2/2 Last Word.
I'd go with 2/3 ToR.

Regarding ToR. Specifically in the Nefarion and Cho'Gall fight. I unfortunately can't talk hard modes since I havent' seen the fights and my guild probably won't be heading there in the near future anyways.

Nefarion P1, 10 man especially for the Nefarion tank. Nefarion and Onyxia are too far for beacon healing to work anyways. There's no reason not to spam DL on the Nefarion tank for efficiency.

Cho'Gall. During the add phases, especially the first 2-3 adds, the add tank is likely going to be out of beacon range. If flame orders goes off, you're going to be spamming DL on that tank directly.

3/3 Divinity and 3/3 Crusade is a no brainer. So now we have 4 points left to split apart. I've found EG to provide some pretty decent HP generation. Again, I unfortunately don't have logs, but better than ToR and BL put together. The additional 7% speed relative to the boot enchant is nice, but it's not something I'd write home about either, not for trading against EG HP generation. I'd more more willing to trade BL or ToR for PoJ instead of EG.

What's worse is that it requires we waste another talent point into 2/2 IJ. Really 1/2 IJ is enough for range purposes. I'd rather use a completely useless point and make it a poorly used point in BL or ToR.

EDIT: Directly related to Adt's points. Yes ToR is bad. Yes BL is bad. But 1/2 BL is worth more HP than 2/2 BL because of the 6 second internal cooldown. 2/2 BL won't necessarily double your HP generation.

ToR is bad, but I consider 10 yards on judgement and last word to be completely useless, which is unfortunately worse than bad. Your mileage may vary.

EG I would not trade for PoJ. PoJ is nice, but not that nice.
Edited by Lylthe on 4/7/2011 5:19 PM PDT
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1 Human Rogue
0
beacon is 60yards, really hard for that to be out of range :\


POJ is bigger than you think, since we cant heal very much while moving. Staying alive is a priority above anything else.

I guess everyone has their own way of healing. There are multiple specs and it will depend on the encounter and the healer. In the end there is no correct spec



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