Get the Desktop App for Battle.net Now
- All your games in 1 place
- Log in once
- Automatic game updates
HS + CS + WoG
Duration = 1.5 + 2*(1.5/Haste)
Healing(4300sp) ~= 14550
HPM ~= 3.45
HS + CS + LoD
Duration = 1.5 + 2*(1.5/Haste)
Healing(4300sp) ~= 23181
HPM ~= 5.5
HS + HL + WoG (no HoPo generated form HL)
Duration = 2.5/Haste + 2*(1.5/haste)
Healing(4300sp) ~= 18333
HPM ~= 4.6
HS + HL + LoD
Duration = 2.5/Haste + 2*(1.5/haste)
Healing(4300sp) ~= 23371
HPM ~= 5.87
At this spellpower level, while CS would be a slight drop in HPM, it is also a gain in HPS. At my 4300 sp and 12% gear haste, using CS would be ~9.5% increased HPS for ~6.7% increase in HPM. Then factor in that Holy shock into Crusader strike allows at least 2.5s of melee time to proc SoI. Using the holy power on WoG will result in a net loss due to its weakness.
HS + DL + LoD
Duration = 2.5/Haste + 2*(1.5/haste)
Healing(4300sp) = 48,336 (Note that the other comparisons all can be used off beacon to gain +50%, only ~25,500 of this can be used off beacon)
HPM ~= 5.4
Going from HS + HL + LoD to using DL gains us ~89% HPS as the cost of 18% HPM, but you consider beacon, everything else gets +50.
HS:CS:2LoD = 10,100 HPS, 9.07 HPM
HS:HL:1LoD = 9200 HPS, 9.6 HPM
HS:DL:2LoD = 14,663 HPS, 6.9 HPM
HS:DL:1LoD = 14,340 HPS, 6.7 HPM
TL:DR, Crusader strike is viable for holy power generation
Edited by Faelyne on 12/15/2010 12:37 AM PST
Haha, leave it to Faelyne to poke 2 holes in my analysis :)
1) Light of Dawn
2) Crusader Strike's GCD is unaffected by haste.
Anyways, I'd like to repeat the analysis for general cases:
What SP Coef and base did you use for LoD and how many targets did you hit with LoD? What K factor did you use when calculating these numbers? If you pulled them from in-game testing, did you normalize for Conviction and an extra 6% when healing yourself?
Edited by Lylthe on 12/15/2010 6:54 AM PST
Ok, first draft, here we go:
Let's first ignore ToR, and do a straight comparison of spell spam vs. beacon swapping. I'm also going to ignore LoD for now until I get good numbers for it.
The worst case scenario for beacon swapping, is you consuming 1 GCD to move the beacon every cast.
Let's also assume the beacon is doing useful healing. Because beacon incorporates all the nasty stuff about K, base heals, and SP, I'm lumping all of that into a little black box called HL Heal, DL Heal, and FoL heal respectively.
For the comparative purpose, I'm going to assume straight spam, and the beacon is doing 0 useful healing because its in the wrong place.
Beacon swapping effectively increases the cast time of all your spells. A worst cast scenario is you beacon swap for every single cast. This increases HPM by 50%, but is a net HPS loss because the 50% throughput increase, is insufficient to cover the increased cast time. How many casts do we need for beacon swapping to match the HPS of straight spell spam?
n = # of casts
DL/HL HPS = 1.5*Heal Amount/(1.5/H+2.5*n/H)
FoL HPS = 1.5*Heal Amount/(1.5/H+1.5*n/H)
DL/HL HPS = Heal Amount/(2.5*n/H)
FoL HPS = Heal Amount/(1.5*n/H)
Goal: Beacon Swap >= Straight Spam
DL/HL : 1.5*Heal Amount/(1.5/H+2.5*n/H) >=Heal Amount/(2.5*n/H)
FoL :1.5*Heal Amount/(1.5/H+1.5*n/H) >= Heal Amount/(1.5*n/H)
Haste and Heal Amount Drop
DL/HL : 1.5/(1.5+2.5*n) >=1/(2.5*n)
FoL :1.5/(1.5+1.5*n) >= 1/(1.5*n)
... Algebra Happens ...
DL/HL: n >= 1.2 or n>2
FoL: n >= 2
So for straight spam, you need 2 casts w/ DL/HL to get a HPS boost, and you need 3 casts w/ FoL to get a HPS boost.
What about ToR?
For HL, since ToR doesn't work, you need 2+ casts for beacon swapping to beat spam. HL beacon healing always beats straight spam HPM.
For DL, because WoG/HP is less than 0.5 DL even with WoG beacon transfers, ToR is a HPM loss over beacon swapping. Using Faelyne's numbers from:
For LoD Hitting 6 targets is a HPM loss, but if there are beacon transfers, you must heal 5+ targets, and get full transfers to the beacon for ToR rotations to generate a HPM bonus over DL beacon healing.
For FoL, WoG is a HPM loss even with WoG beacon transfers, but you need to heal 5 targets straight with LoD, or 3 targets with full beacon transfer for ToR to beat beacon swapping in HPM.
What about HPS? The situations we're going to compare are:
ToR: 3xDL on beacon->WoG or 3xDL on beacon->LoD
Out of time. I'll theorycraft more later.
I used a 6 target LoD, as in a raiding situation you will pretty much be guaranteed that outcome. I use post nerf LoD numbers, without factoring conviction nor the additional self-dinivity boost (mainly because you can hit 6 people who are not you), which does not add to the beacon healing.
My LoD coef was 0.132 per target, per holy power, pre mods. The mods are as such: (15%Spec + 5%SoI) * 6%Divinity
LoD reduction was -~40%, or 60% of old values. I did not retest as casting a significant number of LoD would be tedious. I did verify that healing was aprox in line with predictions by healing people in the AHs for many LoD numbers.
I have a question then, for itemizing say you item...
helm A) (which is currently equiped)
202haste Also its reforged
socket bonus +30mastery
haste 72 (has been reforged already from Master to haste)
What do you think I should choose. More haste or possible int
My LoD coef was 0.132 per target, per holy power, pre mods. The mods are as such: (15%Spec + 5%SoI)
I've been working under the impression Walk in Light stacks multiplicatively with Seal of Insight. T_T I need to go back in game to check which one it is tomorrow evening.
Yeah, use helm B if you have a meta to put in. If you're poor and don't have gems, go with A.
I have a question then, for itemizing say you item...
I would take A, unless you use the 54 int meta gem and a 40int gem,which would give:
+2% max mana
Net gains of B over A:
110 Mastery is easily better then 122 crit, leaving 130 haste loss for 34 int and 82 spirit. I rate haste higher then spirit, so this is a net loss, but the int makes it almost a respectable trade. Toss in 2% additional maximum mana, and it pushed it over imo.
Nope, Spec bonus, SoI glyph and Crusade are all additive with eachother. I sill have to test conviction, AW, and DP.
Edited by Faelyne on 12/15/2010 10:04 PM PST
Thanks Qban. Good to know.
I think I'm making my life too difficult and over thinking things. The short answer is try to avoid healing the beacon, but don't be stupid and let someone die as you're beacon swapping. We're going to want to glyph beacon so we're free to beacon swap, but carry a stack of Disappearing Powder so you can swap glyphs on a per fight basis.
Use LoD over WoG if you can heal 4+ people. If you can heal 5+ people, LoD is a better beacon heal than. 4 and 5 are rough estimates. I'll post final numbers later.
Ideally you're going to try to move the beacon to DPS that need the heals and heal the tank directly to sustain sufficient HPS on the tank. Don't be stupid about it and let someone die though. In general, it's not worth beacon swapping unless you can get at least 3 heals off before the next swap. 3 is again a rough number until I do more math.
A strange quirk is that if only one target needs heals, a DL ToR cycle is in fact better than a HL cycle. HOWEVER, this assumes only one target needs heals. This is pretty rare. If a 2nd target ever needs heals, HL is your default heal unless HPS is an issue.
ReforgingThis section needs to be rewritten I feel. Players are bound to be quoting this thread and there is clearly inadequate math indicating why Haste is prioritized over other stats (I do agree with Int and Spirit being more important stats).
I would re-write it:
3) Haste to 6% (or 14.5%, or another higher plateau)
4) Mastery & Crit equally
Based on a lot of stuff later on in this thread.
Edit: Changed my opinions some, it looks much better now. :D
Edited by Rabel on 1/5/2011 12:57 AM PST
So you're saying "WRONG WRONG WRONG" because you don't see math, but there is no math for yours either. Haste is better situationally hands down.
So you're saying "WRONG WRONG WRONG" because you don't see math, but there is no math for yours either. Haste is better situationally hands down.Specifically what situation? The situation where you read EJ forums and can't think for yourself?
If we assume these shields are 100% effective, Mastery will be less output then haste, but significantly more compared to crit.That situation? Because I get the feeling that everyone is basing their knowledge off of this sentence, and I believe it to be WRONG.
100 Mastery provides: ~0.697% additional shieldingOr maybe this is the one that gets you? Added absorb shield, a situational use (only useful if the target gets hit AFTER your heal hits), and Haste has a higher percentage clearly... well why the hell not - HASTE WINS!
Except it doesn't. Every point of haste has to be compensated with additional spirit, at a rate I can't currently claim to be good enough at math to pin down. If you include this spirit into the Haste rating bundle (100 haste now becomes something like 85 haste and 15 spirit), you will see that percentage drop to... oh look!
85 Haste provides: ~0.653% Spell Haste
15 Spirit provides: effectively nothing, it is compensating for the above
No friggin way! That would make this argument favoring Haste void. Now wait, if that were actually true we would have had someone do the math and find out EXACTLY how this impacts Haste. Except nobody seems to have done so because they are fixed on the clear downsides to Mastery.
Mastery requires the target to take more damage after your heal hits to be effective. Well... when I think about it this actually happens quite a lot! Assuming it does not, though, what exactly was gained by healing the player faster anyway? Further healing to that player is precursory to damage taken as well, JUST LIKE MASTERY SHIELDING. This is exactly why that argument against Mastery is void.
Mastery adds nothing to Beacon healing, which is the strongest increase to our healing efficiency of course. This means that while Mastery is efficient - 100% actually, it costs nothing but rating which we have yet to establish a clear indication of which stat it aught to be prioritized in! - it has a clear 33% net loss in effectiveness for straight healing output.
This is of course assuming you are using Beacon effectively 100% of the time. Wow, that was a little hiccup you did not see coming did you? How often are you healing targets when your Beacon is at full health? How often are you healing said Beacon target anyway, especially when it is the target receiving the most damage? Beacon is not perfect and even assuming perfection in its use the loss to Mastery in efficiency drops it back 33%, but that is not a loss it is a GAIN for HASTE (and crit)! Lets throw that number in for Haste instead, shall we?
85 Haste rating: ~0.172% more healing output than 100 Mastery rating
Edited by Rabel on 12/20/2010 5:38 AM PST
My final card to play is Haste vs Mana. See if you can keep up. Increasing your Haste means you cast spells more often, which means you use more Mana. If you do not compensate for this with increased Spirit you will run out of Mana sooner, and thus a balance must be maintained between the two at all times based on your need. Even for a Paladin that uses Mastery this balance must be maintained.
When you increase your Mana use through Haste and compensate for it with Spirit something interesting happens. Because of the increased Spirit relative to someone who stacked Mastery instead your Mana pool will fill up faster! THIS IS BAD and I will tell you why. You have a fixed amount of Mana and the severity of an encounter will determine which spells you cast and how quickly you spend your Mana. When you spend it more quickly you've established that you have lost efficiency. I'm not talking about using it more quickly, I am talking about devaluing the entire Mana system. Your Mana comes and goes faster which means Mana Potions are less useful. Your Spirit is compensating for your increased Mana usage but it is also reduced in value as a whole because you gain ZERO EFFICIENCY from that compensation - it has a net effect of zero gain or loss.
In essence, your Mana is reduced in effectiveness by exactly your percentage of Haste. This also means it is reducing the value of your Intellect (by a much smaller amount though), easily our most important stat. Thinking of this in terms of much larger numbers, at 100% Haste you cast twice as often but Mana means half as much to you. Mana Potions are worth half as much. Enchants for Mana are half as valuable. Flasks are half as useful. Buffs do half as much for you. Percentage boosts do half as much, such as Divine Plea. Innervate is half as valuable.
And that my friends works in the opposite direction with Mastery. Mastery makes all of those things MORE powerful, because at no extra cost to Mana you gain output. So does spell power, of course, but we have already established that Intellect is far and above the best stat. It doesn't really make them more potent, but it increases the amount of healing they produce - that which we call efficiency. I love being efficient, don't you?
How do you like them apples, Haste lovers? :D
On a final note: Haste has one thing going for it which I cannot, WILL NOT, deny it. It increases the speed which which we can respond to damage. It's effect on GCD is even more important. Haste is certainly a great stat, but I don't particularly like the idea of my entire stat priority being determined by a requirement to increase my reaction time. By design, I think healing right now is intended to give us plenty of that, and haste is best used now to buffer against DPS and Tanks that cannot react quickly enough on their own defensive and healing options - so that the Healer can once again carry them through their mistakes, not to mention his or her own mistakes (oops mis-target again)!
I'm not implying that using haste means you are a bad player. I'm just trying to show you that that is its main function, to compensate for inadequacies of play and design and to benefit those who prefer quick reaction over meticulous strategy. That is its sole purpose!
Edited by Rabel on 12/20/2010 5:42 AM PST
Based upon my own raiding observations, I have to agree with Rabel. Raid healing is about maximizing the longevity of your mana pool - not HPS - and the way to do that is to prioritize crit/mastery over haste.
Stat prioritization for me goes like:
Edit: When I say prioritization, I mean just that. All are priority stats.
Beacon swap method may sound good in theory, but there is no way you can keep a tank up without generating holy power from ToR. The holy shock cooldown is simply too long and you would have to rely too heavily on something with a 20% proc rate (daylight). Even if you go with mana efficient HL, Holy light spam is not enough to keep up with damage on most boss fights. I suppose you could do it for a while with DL, but you would quickly go OOM. Also, the GCD time cannot be afforded to switch beacon around that often.
Edited by Abor on 12/20/2010 8:47 AM PST
85 Human Paladin
Raids are next week for my guild - so I have to ask, why?
My likely utility in the raid, as I see it, will be beacon on the tank or OT, and not be the tank healer. No swapping, and as I'm finding in heroics, I never WoG. I use LoD when there is 3HP, but I don't try to generate Holy Power. I haven't found it to be effective enough since the hotfix to be concerned - I get by just fine with HS, DL with a chunk to heal, HL with a tiny bit to heal and HS on CD, and HR when more than one needs it and dps/tank is in a position to benefit.
Light of Dawn only reaches 5 targets, 6 with a glyph and possibly 7 if you count the heals being transferred via Beacon. Even in a 10 man raid, you will find that LoD is simply not going to cut it. People will not be positioned properly to receive the heal and the minimal amount that it does heal for will not be enough to out-heal the raid wide AoE damages in boss fights.
If you do not generate holy power consistently to use Word of Glory then your mana efficiency will be crap.
Healing is mostly situational and involves using the right ability at the right moment in the right situation so don't take this as some end all be all to paladin healing. BUT, I am confident your guild will find it better to have you focus more on a tank and let one of the healing classes better suited for it focus on raid AoE healing (ie: resto shaman, holy priest). Holy Radiance is a fantastic ability, but it will not be able to solely keep your raid group up during the 20 seconds it is inactive and on cooldown.
You can still heal the raid, as I do frequently, but only during times of intense AoE damage and on targets that are low to help bring their health up.
Get into the mindset of maximizing your mana efficiency and not burst HPS. We have plenty of instant/near-instant abilities that make burst HPS healing possible when necessary. Over the last week of raiding, my main heals have become Divine Light and Word of Glory - the 2 most mana efficient heals we have.
Again, this is the playstyle that works for me and my guild in our raids and I suspect for many others that have been successful as well. Play how you want as I am merely offering lessons learned from my own experiences thus far.
Edited by Abor on 12/20/2010 9:29 AM PST
Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.
Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.
Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.