Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting

85 Human Paladin
5830
12/20/2010 9:26 AMPosted by Abor
Even in a 10 man raid, you will find that LoD is simply not going to cut it. People will not be positioned properly to receive the heal and the minimal amount that it does heal for will not be enough to out-heal the raid wide AoE damages in boss fights.


I probably wasn't clear - I do not, in any way, rely on LoD now. I use it if I have the HP to burn, nothing else.

12/20/2010 9:26 AMPosted by Abor
If you do not generate holy power consistently to use Word of Glory then your mana efficiency will be crap.


This is where I don't follow. I'm not really seeing issues with not caring about WoG or LoD, or Holy Power in general. Again, maybe because raids are next week. That said, if I'm not the tank healer, I'm not generating HP from DL or FoL. I'm only getting it from HS, which makes it very slow generation - which means I can't rely on WoG.

Also, if I do heal the beacon, I'm losing out on 50% of bonus healing that the beacon could have received from raid heals. I personally feel like this would hurt efficiency quite a bit more. This is just a perspective though, not math, I don't have any for myself yet to try it out.

Well.... I'll have to see how it goes next week, I've been toying with the idea of dropping my ret spec and making them both holy for a bit now, so maybe I'll do that and see where my spec goes.
Edited by Setanta on 12/20/2010 11:20 AM PST
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
12/20/2010 9:22 AMPosted by Dubalicious
so THAT'S why they call you Rabel. . .
I'm assuming you are referring to the use of the word rabble, which I don't feel my post is. :D

The name was actually chosen because I played a Rebel in SWG prior to WoW. I wanted a new name and it sounded alright for a Dwarf, but Rebel was also a little... strange, out of character (RP server), thus the letter change.
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90 Human Paladin
5705
This is where I don't follow. I'm not really seeing issues with not caring about WoG or LoD, or Holy Power in general. Again, maybe because raids are next week. That said, if I'm not the tank healer, I'm not generating HP from DL or FoL. I'm only getting it from HS, which makes it very slow generation - which means I can't rely on WoG.

Also, if I do heal the beacon, I'm losing out on 50% of bonus healing that the beacon could have received from raid heals. I personally feel like this would hurt efficiency quite a bit more. This is just a perspective though, not math, I don't have any for myself yet to try it out.

Well.... I'll have to see how it goes next week, I've been toying with the idea of dropping my ret spec and making them both holy for a bit now, so maybe I'll do that and see where my spec goes.


Keep in mind I am coming from a 10 man raiding perspective where, if you're a healer, you are a tank healer.

The 50% heal from Beacon does not always translate into effective healing. A lot of the beacon healing will end up being overheal so you should not let that be the reason you don't heal the beacon target.

I don't really understand how you are even making it through heroics if you are not actively generating holy power. Anyway, as I said before, that is just my experience. Maybe you have found a different way to be an effective healer.
Edited by Abor on 12/20/2010 11:34 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
5830
12/20/2010 11:31 AMPosted by Abor
I don't really understand how you are even making it through heroics if you are not actively generating holy power. Anyway, as I said before, that is just my experience. Maybe you have found a different way to be an effective healer.


Holy Shock, Divine Light, and Holy Radiance are my go-to's. Holy Light if its tiny and I feel like I have time, Flash of Light if I need it real big real fast, and Lay on Hands for the big OH !$(@& scenario. I regularly hit my 2 min CD's (since I've got plenty between trinkets and the ones we get as pally's), and the only thing thats ever taken a group down in heroics has been mechanics. I'll pop wings or my SP trinket before HR, and still toss out a DL (this is what I love about HR - healing that caster while I'm aoe healing the melee).

I tried using WoG and LoD, and just felt like it was... meh. Even if I see the tank at 50%, if I know he doesn't have a big whack coming (depending on fight), I'll DL the DPS, and avoid the need for a FoL on him.

*shrug* I dunno, maybe I could be doing it better - I just haven't run into problems yet, which may change at raid time.

EDIT: Had a pug tank last night who was loving the heals - and he only got a direct heal during trash pulls and when the dps was basically full during the boss fights. He had a big enough pool (135k-ish) that I felt comfortable letting him take more hits while I got the DPS up.
Edited by Setanta on 12/20/2010 12:02 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5620
For raiding, Spirit is incredibly important. If you look at my gear, even that's barely enough Spirit to get me through a Halfus fight. Normally at ~5-10% mana when Halfus is at 50%. It does get easier from there however, as I'm not healing as much once the drakes are down. I, for one, value Spirit a lot in this expansion.
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85 Human Paladin
1880
Paladins not in plate gear make Uther cry.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
12/20/2010 2:06 PMPosted by Dubalicious
the bigger issue is being able to get everyone topped off (or high enough) from one damage spike to the next.
I haven't raided yet but I like the sound of this, it sounds like raid healing is much more interesting than Heroics.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7970
12/20/2010 1:10 PMPosted by Noxè
For raiding, Spirit is incredibly important. If you look at my gear, even that's barely enough Spirit to get me through a Halfus fight. Normally at ~5-10% mana when Halfus is at 50%. It does get easier from there however, as I'm not healing as much once the drakes are down. I, for one, value Spirit a lot in this expansion.


Intellect is equally important to facilitate a mana pool large enough to take advantage of good regen. The fact you're missing out on a giant heap of it by not getting your Armor specialization may have a lot to do with this.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Sorry, I haven't been updating this thread lately. I'll admit, I'm not very progressed in Cataclysm. I've been spending my time farming heroics, gearing up and working with my guild (which is admittedly pretty casual) instead of number crunching.

Stat Weighting
1) Intellect
2) Spirit to Comfort
3) Haste to Comfort
4) Crit
5) Mastery

The rationale behind this is
1) You need a base amount for % benefits to work off of. Int also does lots of other good things
2) Have enough gear to avoid OOMing.
3) Don’t let someone die to Reflex Fail.
4) Stat dump to everything else.
I don't know how I can make this any more clear.

Did someone die because your cast/reflexes were too slow?
Yes - you need more haste.
No - you're good on haste.

-------------

Regarding mastery:
No one has a good model for mastery at this time. If one you point me to a good mathematical model for mastery in a raid environment, I would LOVE to see it. I did some modeling for WotLK content that showed mastery to be just a little bit weaker than crit on a point for point basis.

I believe however, that we can assume a shield is either going to be completely absorbed, or completely wasted judging by the size of hits we take, and the size of our shields. Using this assumption, it's possible to start using Recount or Skada to predict expected shield usage, then determine the amount of effective healing that mastery RATING provides.

--------

LoD is actually really easy to use. If you can heal 3+ targets, use LoD. At least I think it's 3. If you want to use 4-5, then you're almost guaranteed to be safe. I can't tell what that exact number is until we get LoD #'s.

------

My focus has been on spell modeling, and this is really hard to do until I get LoD numbers. I don't want to spend hours in Org with a dummy to back derive them, when we're likely going to get a patch in the next week or so that should update the tooltip.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/20/2010 7:52 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
If one you point me to a good mathematical model for mastery is raid environment, I would LOVE to see it.
I'm not good enough with math and with Excel to do anything on this front, but I really would like to see some more done so hopefully someone with those talents will desire to do so and bring it to us.

I've just been very frustrated lately with so many people supporting haste when to me it clearly has too many downsides to justify any large amount of itself, especially when there are two other stats that have purely beneficial increases.

This thread is actually pretty awesome :D
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6 Troll Shaman
0
12/20/2010 6:33 PMPosted by Rabel
hopefully someone with those talents will desire to do so and bring it to us.

Haha oh I will eventually look at mastery. But our guild isn't ready to consistently run raids yet. So any data I collect at this point will be heroics only :P

Plus there's so much more math to do on the spell selection side.

WoG vs. LoD needs another good look. Beacon swapping needs to be examined. ToR vs. BL. I need to reexamine if CSing is worth it or not. And the big one, (for accurate theorycrafting purposes) what exactly multiplies and what exactly adds to the K factor.

----------------

Anyways, I've updated accurate SP base ranges and SP coefficients. I derived these from ingame tooltips without talents, so my inaccurate K factor won't cause problems. LIGHT OF DAWN NUMBERS ARE PRE HOTFIX. For simple analysis, reduce the numbers by 40%.

---------------
Tested K stacking.

Like Faelyne said, SoI and WitL add. WoG Glyph adds.

Conviction Multiplies. I can't tell if Wings multiplies or adds because it doesn't update the tooltip.

The base 6% on divinity multiplies, I don't know if it multiplies again or adds when you heal yourself.

Crusade Adds.

Updated first post accordingly.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/20/2010 9:31 PM PST
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Starting doing math for WoG vs. LoD here:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1567812461#10

Need to clean it up and transcribe it to the front page of this thread:

TL/DR: Need to heal 4+ people for LoD to beat WoG. Need to heal 6 people for LoD to be a good beacon heal.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9110
Lylthe,

Thanks SOOOO much for putting this together. For those of us that suck at math, guys like you are a real light saber. I MEAN life saver. ;-) Great guide! Thanks again!

Hammer
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6 Troll Shaman
0
There seems to be a lot of discussion going on about juggling our secondary stats: spirit, haste, mastery and crit.

Let me start by saying: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO, well not a lot.

At my current gear level, I have about 770 rating points to juggle with reforging. Now would going from 0 rating points up to 770 rating points be significant? Yes, very much so. But would moving those rating points around be significant? Much less so.

Heuristically, we're estimating 1/2 of our mastery shields are wasted, is 770 mastery is roughly 2.69% healing, Crit is 2.148% extra healing. Haste (ignore mana costs) is 6.01% healing. 770 Spirit is roughly 385 mp5. We're talking deltas of 3.9% at the extreme, but more realistically the delta is in the range of 1%.

Is it significant? Yes. But is it SO important that it will eclipse proper spell selection? Heck no. For example. changing HL and DL is going to change HPM by ~25% and HPS by ~170%. That's like comparing a hose to a drip.

So as long as you're not doing something completely stupid, like reforging/regemming into expertise, you're going to be ok.

--------

Now that said, let's talk about Haste. People are either loving this too much, or hating on it too hard.

1) Haste does NOT affect mana EFFICIENCY.
HPM is unchanged by haste. It doesn't make it better. It doesn't make it worse. If the boss hits your tank for 30k, it's always going to take X mana to refill that. It doesn't matter if it takes 3 seconds to fill it or 2.8 seconds to fill it. You STILL need to expend the same amount of mana and you STILL need to fill it.

Blaming haste for going OOM is silly. The reason you went OOM is because you blew your wad and used the wrong spells. It's like saying you got fat because your mouth is bigger than your neighbor's. No the reason you got fat is because you shoveled food down your mouth.

2) Haste DOES have an opportunity cost.
It's easiest to see this in reforging and gemming. Getting 40 haste means you're not getting 40 spirit. Getting 40 haste means you're not getting 40 crit. So in this case you're "losing" some longevity because you have "less" spirit, or even...*sigh yes crit. (Seriously, if you're getting crit for longevity reasons, stop. Go get spirit. There are other reasons for crit.)

3) Gear for what YOU need.
If you need longevity. Get spirit.

If you are desperately in need of HPS or you have bad reflexes, get haste.

If you're not in danger of immediately OOMing, or letting someone die to reflex fail, balance crit and mastery.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/21/2010 9:44 AM PST
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Using my SP (5767) It takes about 2.86 people with full HR heal to match HL hpm. So use HR if at least 3 people need the heal and you they get the full benefit.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
*Sigh, this debate should be dead and over with. Get enough haste so you can avoid personal reflex fail, then balance crit and mastery.

First of all, he's not comparing apples to apples. How do you compare 0.6 seconds to 34% bubbles to 45-50% crit rate? And he's pulling out numbers that sound nice without finishing the math. Seriously, the GCD cap isn't something we can even consider at this point. 45-50% crit rate isn't something you can consider either.

And the day I rely on IoL to do my healing is the day I stop. Is it a nice perk? Yes. Can you guarantee it's going to proc when you need it? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Hate haste. Love haste. Hate crit. Love crit. It doesn't matter. The difference in healing is like a dripper vs. a fire hose. But since everyone wants to debate this, I'll do the math... again. Whatever conclusions we make, let's get the math right ok?

There's only 2 cast times we have. Everything is either 2.5 seconds (HL/DL), or 1.5 seconds (GCD/IoL procs/FoL).

0 Haste rating, you will have a 2.121 cast time, or a 1.272 cast time.

You need 3491 Haste Rating to get GCD capped. That's a 1.667 DL/HL cast, and a 1.0 sec GCD. That's a time saving of 0.454 sec and .272 sec cast time savings.

In Summary:
3491 Haste Rating -
27.247% haste, or 27.247% increase to HPS.

3491 Crit Rating -
19.481% crit or 9.740% increase to HPS and HPM

3491 Mastery Rating -
19.48 Mastery or 24.351% bigger shields or predicted 12.176% increase to HPS and HPM.


There, now you can make all the conclusions you want.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/21/2010 12:45 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
1) Haste does NOT affect mana EFFICIENCY
It does not affect Mana use efficiency, but it does affect Mana effeciency through Spirit. The more Haste you have, the more Spirit it takes to overcome that Haste increase, the less your Mana returns mean for your healing output per Mana. This is really the fault of the increased Spirit, but it is necessary if you wish to stack Haste and so I blame Haste for the effects.

Think about it, if you must regenerate 1/3rd faster (33% total haste) you will be reducing the impact of all sources of Mana on your healing output and longevity by 1/6th (~16%). This includes Divine Plea, Judgement, Innervates, Flasks, and Spirit itself. Keep in mind this is not necessarily true, more Haste does not mean you MUST use that haste for healing spam, but it starts to lose an incredible amount of ground in HPS to Mastery and Crit if you do not.

And that is why in my post above I label Haste as to be used only for reflex saving value, and to take no consideration for its statistical HPS increase.

I'm pretty sure I am doing the math right there, but again it is not my strong point. I for one want every ounce of Mana to output as much healing as possible, even the cost of casting speed or overall consistent healing output, and for that purpose Haste is not something I want.
Edited by Rabel on 12/21/2010 1:11 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8715
12/21/2010 1:05 PMPosted by Rabel
1) Haste does NOT affect mana EFFICIENCY
It does not affect Mana use efficiency, but it does affect Mana effeciency through Spirit. The more Haste you have, the more Spirit it takes to overcome that Haste increase, the less your Mana returns mean for your healing output per Mana. This is really the fault of the increased Spirit, but it is necessary if you wish to stack Haste and so I blame Haste for the effects.

Think about it, if you must regenerate 1/3rd faster (33% total haste) you will be reducing the impact of all sources of Mana on your healing output and longevity by 1/6th (~16%). This includes Divine Plea, Judgement, Innervates, Flasks, and Spirit itself. Keep in mind this is not necessarily true, more Haste does not mean you MUST use that haste for healing spam, but it starts to lose an incredible amount of ground in HPS to Mastery and Crit if you do not.

I'm pretty sure I am doing the math right there, but again it is not my strong point. I for one want every ounce of Mana to output as much healing as possible, even the cost of casting speed or overall consistent healing output, and for that purpose Haste is not something I want.


This is exactly what I've been saying.
You don't need to be a math genius, its just common sense.
Its a contradiction to say more haste doesn't mean more mana usage unless you are spamming heals, and then turn around and say it increases HPM. If you are increasing HPM with haste, you are using more mana to do it!
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