Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting

6 Troll Shaman
Mana Efficiency is measured in HPM, or heals per mana. Haste doesn't change how much healing a spell does. It doesn't change how much mana the spell costs. HPM is unchanged.

If the boss hits your tank for 30k, the tank needs 30k healing. It doesn't matter if it takes 2.5 seconds, or it takes 2 seconds, the tank still needs 30k healing. If the boss hits the tank again in 2.2 seconds, and you take 2.5 seconds, then your tank is eventually going to die. If the boss hits again in 2.2 seconds and it takes you 2 seconds to heal 30k, then you have "wasted" haste rating that would have been better reforged into something else, like spirit.

Just because you can go OOM in 25 seconds vs. 30 seconds doesn't matter. The same raw healing has to happen.

Just because you CAN burn your mana faster doesn't mean you SHOULD. Yeah, if you have 2 people spamming DL on the tank, one of them with haste stacked, then YES, the haste stacked paladin will OOM faster is time. However, the raw healing is the same. And say it takes 30 seconds for the haste paladin to OOM, and it takes 45 seconds for the non-haste paladin to oom, the haste paladin will still be able to regen at the same rate in those 15 seconds and will resume healing.

But they're both idiots because that's a stupid rotation.

Mana in is independent of mana out. If we want to talk about the bad aspects of haste, again, it's the opportunity cost of crit and spirit and mastery, not the fact it gives you the CHOICE to oom faster. The problem isn't haste, it's the player.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/21/2010 1:24 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
Mana in is independent of mana out.
Except that Haste forces you to compensate with additional Spirit in a pure HPS (Healing Per Second) scenario. Additional Spirit that does not increase our longevity, which means it devalues our Mana pool and all stats that affect it, including Spirit itself.

Haste for HPS = more Mana spending = more Spirit to compensate

More Spirit at no gain to longevity = less value of Spirit and Mana = reduction in efficiency

Edit: I'm totally out of it right now and having trouble discussing this, so I will leave you to it. Safe journeys :D
Edited by Rabel on 12/21/2010 1:44 PM PST
Reply Quote
6 Troll Shaman
lol, stop trying to make me defend Haste! Just get enough to avoid reflex fail.

Haste = more Mana spending
No it doesn't.

Strictly speaking from a mana per second stand point of view this is true. But we're talking about efficiency, and efficiency is all about HEALING per mana.

Regen rate is independent of how quickly you spend it. The rate you spend it should be controlled by spell selection and incoming damage. Haste exists only to increase that maximum threshold. How often that threshold is pushed is on the player.


12/21/2010 1:38 PMPosted by Adt
can't think of too many times in recent memory where having more haste would have really adding a huge value based on how i've healed thus far in heroics and raids.
Yes, I know, and when I try to explain theory and math, I end up defending haste more than I want to.

I personally like it just because there are times I'm locked out of GCD. But that's just me. I'm not trying to advocate haste stacking. I'm only trying to advocate "to comfort". My definition of "to comfort" is probably higher than yours.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/21/2010 1:52 PM PST
Reply Quote
6 Troll Shaman

Let's talk cars.

Gas in tank = mana
Distance Traveled = Amount Healed
Miles per gallon = efficiency = HPM

Increasing Haste increases the top speed of the car. If MPG was constant (which it isn't and where the analogy breaks down), you're still going to travel 60 miles whether it took you 1 hour, or 2. The reason you ran out of gas in 1 hour is because you stomped on the gas pedal. it's YOUR fault you ran out of gas, not the top speed of the car.

Now does the car NEED to be that fast? Probably not. Do you NEED that HPS boost? Probably not. So work on some other stats. How about a magic solar cell that turns light into gas? Sounds awesome. Stack some spirit.

And the rest of the analogy just becomes silly.
Reply Quote
6 Troll Shaman
12/21/2010 2:06 PMPosted by Adt
I think managing that GCD is just part of the game.
It is.

Part of it is my fault. Part of it is the fault of the DPS that stood in the fire.

I know that I personally, and speaking ONLY for myself, am more likely to let someone die because I didn't juggle my instants and cooldowns correctly as opposed to going OOM by spamming too much FoL/DL.

I know that I personally, and speaking ONLY for myself, am more annoyed than pleasantly surprised by crits because they throw my 5-10 second heal plan out the window, and when I'm desperately in need of them, Murphy bites me in the ass.

Does it make me a bad player? Yeah a little bit :P But I can make it up in other ways.
12/21/2010 2:09 PMPosted by Kusuma
you seem to be bent on Haste being Far superior.

EDIT: I'm trying to explain that HPM != Mana consumped per second. Haste does not change HPM. It decreases MCPS.

Crit increases HPM, but doesn't change MCPS. People are trying to compare the MCPS of Haste to HPM of crit. Not apples to apples.

This is a math thread. The math should be right.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/21/2010 2:28 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Paladin
Not sure why people are having a problem healing. It really does come down to the individual player. Get your stats to where you're comfortable with your cast time, your spirit so you have enough mana to last through whatever content you're working on whether that be pvp or pve, and then play around with crit/mastery. Enjoy messing around with numbers and experimenting with things. That's what this game should be about. Have fun! =D
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
Casting faster = Uses mana faster

Pressing the button more = uses mana faster.

Casting faster != Uses mana faster.

Great guide/Info.
Edited by Tyraeli on 12/21/2010 2:44 PM PST
Reply Quote
6 Troll Shaman
Added section on CD usage. I stole the idea to macro Hand of Sac with Divine Protection, but I can't find that post anywhere so I can't give credit.
Reply Quote
10 Gnome Rogue
Haste gives you more control

crit gives you more RNG
Reply Quote
6 Troll Shaman
20 casts from a crit build with 20% crit = 4 crits.
20 casts from haste build with 10% crit = 2 crits.
This is what I mean by making me defend Haste. For the record, I am NOT advocating haste here. I am NOT advocating crit either. I AM saying this isn't the greatest comparison, so I'm going to show a better one.

Before I get into the specific numbers, 20 casts is NOT enough to normalize out the variance from crit. 20 casts, with 20% SHOULD give an average of 4 crits. You won't. AFAIK you're going to get a binomial distribution. There are statistics involved I haven't touched since high school, but there will ALWAYS be a discrete probability you get 0 crits.

And 20 casts may not be a good model. From say 20%->Full for a tank with 150k, that's ~14 HL, or ~5 DL. So, it's better to use say 8 heals (including some shocks and WoG w/ DL) for the n heals in a sequence when considering the variance of crits vs. non-crits.

But for discussion sake, we'll keep 20 casts.

To get 20% crit, As far as I know, you should get 5% spell crit from raid buffs. We'll estimate 8% crit from intellect. So we need 7% crit from rating, which isn't unreasonable.

That's 1255 crit rating.

1255 Crit Rating converted into haste is 9.8% haste.

So let's consider the base case. No haste rating. No Crit rating. I'll be lazy and just do it symbolically. I'll merge in the 20 casts and just call everything:
Healing Done = H0 (Call it H0/20 on a per cast basis)
Cast Time = T0 (Call it T0/20 on a per cast basis)
Haste rating stacks multiplicatively with raid buffed haste. So I can merge all of that into T0.
Mana Cost = M0 (Call it M0/20 on a per cast basis)

Case 1 (Crit Stacking):
Healing Done = H0*(1+ 0.2*.5 (Extra healing is crit%/2)) = 1.1H0
Time = T0
Mana Cost = M0
HPM = 1.1H0/M0
HPS = 1.1H0/T0

Case 2 (Haste Stacking):
Healing Done = H0*(1+ (0.05 Raid buff crit +0.08 int crit)*.5 (Extra healing is crit%/2)) = 1.065H0
Time = T0/1.098
Mana Cost = M0
HPM = 1.065H0/M0
HPS = 1.065H0/(T0/1.098) = 1.16937H0/T0

So for comparative purposes:
Crit Stacking:
HPM = 1.1H0/M0
HPS = 1.1H0/T0
Haste Stacking
HPM = 1.065H0/M0
HPS = 1.16937H0/T0

Now draw your own conclusions
Edited by Lylthe on 12/21/2010 5:00 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
12/13/2010 1:09 PMPosted by Lylthe
Divine Plea... technically the best HPS boost we have. However, you're going to need to expend more mana to get that extra healing. So it's a HPS boost, but not a HPM boost like the others.

Don't you divine favor sir ?
Reply Quote
6 Troll Shaman
Thanks for catching that typo.

So here's a bunch of Omnitron wipes to look at:

The main area of note, is Blessed Life vs. ToR. I ended up speccing into both for test purposes:
Tower of Radiance 38 Unknown
Blessed Life 36 Unknown

where Unknown is Holy Power.

What that actually means for our spec, I'll figure out later.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Explain (256 characters max)