Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting

85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
You cant defend Haste against Mastery and Crit unless you defend its HPS (Healing per Second) output. You also cannot defend it against them in purely HPM (Healing per Mana) as both Crit and Mastery actually increase that where Haste, as you say, does not.

So in Hastes defense it does increase HPS significantly more than the other stats (only because of Beacon does it beat Mastery, and only because of Crit's halved effect does it win out there), but it has major downsides:

- Increased Spirit requirement to maintain longevity
- That increased Spirit at no actual net benefit means devaluing your Mana somewhat, a loss in efficiency for healing spells

I believe Paladin will still fill a Tank healer niche in most of this expansion and for that purpose Mastery and Crit are ideal stats.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
12/22/2010 12:16 AMPosted by Rabel
- Increased Spirit requirement to maintain longevity
- That increased Spirit at no actual net benefit means devaluing your Mana somewhat, a loss in efficiency for healing spells

Seriously, no. Like I've said before, and Dubalicious explained again, if the raid takes X damage, you always need X healing. However long it takes really doesn't matter, provided you can do it quickly enough that someone doesn't die. When we talk about efficiency it's ALL about HPM.

Is crit better HPM than haste? Yes. But does haste lower HPM? No. Haste does not decrease efficiency. It gives you the CHOICE to spend your mana faster.

You don't need any more spirit with haste, than if you didn't have haste at all. The situation you're describing is one where you are spamming balls to the wall, where yes, the time it takes to OOM is shorter, but you're still doing the same amount of effective healing. And if that's the case, you NEEDED that haste because your target would have died otherwise. Or you're bad because you're overhealing.

If you want to stack crit and mastery, that's perfectly fine. I've given the numbers and reasons why crit and mastery are arguably better. I've also presented the other side of the argument. I've been trying to say that these stats do different things (surprise!) and their relative values will depend on your goal.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/22/2010 1:07 AM PST
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
6870
I think the forums are lagging, so if this gets double posted, blame blizzard :P

... at the last few pages in this thread...

Mastery does not 'beat' haste in any situation for HPS. Anyone that thinks so is clueless.

Mastery will effect rougly anywhere from 100% to 30% of your healing, with realistic situations being in the 40-60 range. For comparison, at 40%, mastery is eqivelent to Crit in HPS and HPM. There is no refuting this unless you are truley clueless.

The only stat that can even remotly compare to Haste, (and that is not Int) is spirit. Spirit will give extra mana, that is all. In order for spirit to effect healing, you need to either be running out of mana (increases total healing via high HPM spells), or you need to be able to upgrade from HL to DL via the extra mana (which practically requires you to not be already running OOM).

The best situtaiton for spirit is a 1 target healing fight, something that is not even all that common in 5 mans. Under these situations, if you A) already have enough mana to last the fight, and B) do not have enough mana to replace every HL with a DL, spirit will grant you the the capability to gain HPS via extra Mana spent, which is recovered via the spirit.

For some numbers I chose at random that are close to a starting raid build, you would get roughly 6600 HPS from upgrading HL to DL in this fringe situation that compliments spirit. The cost of this is aprox 5600 Mp5. You can recover this with 12,500 spirit. To cover this with Haste, you would need roughly 11,000 haste. So in this contrived and flawed example, using HL with haste is still more HPS then using DL with spirit. We did more total healing with spirit via more total mana, but at a lower rate then if we used HL. The cost of using haste to reach this HP was about 4400 mp5.

What does this tell us?

Choosing spirit and not using DL will give you extra total healing via extra mana, with no increase in HPS
Choosing spirit and using DL will give you extra total healing via extra mana, with less of an increase in HPS then haste.
Choosing Haste and not casting HL faster will give you extra total healing per mana from Holy Radiance, with an increase in HPS.
Choosing Haste and casting HL faster will give you extra total healing per mana from Holy Radiance, with a larger HPS then spirit with DL.

In both cases haste increases HPM and HPS. Spirit will only increase HPS or HPM at your choice. If we consider an AoE situation, it makes it even more favorable for haste.

Haste vs Crit/Mastery for HPM.
Its obvious that crit and mastery are terrible for HPS, so lets check HPM. 1% crit is roughly 0.5% more HPM. In a 34% mastery condition (HL raid healing with LoD and HR), HR takes up ~20% of our healing. With 1% haste, the HPM of HR increases by 1%, or a 0.2% total HPM increase, while Crit would be 0.5%.

So in this case, haste incresed our HPM by 40% of Crit, and also increased maximum HPS by 200% of Crit. Then we have to consider that 1% haste is 71% the cost of 1% crit, and we just multiplied our haste results by 1.4x, granting us 280% HPS and 56% HPM of what Crit would have been.

While I assume a low mastery rotation, I also assume that all mastery is 100% used. 1% Crit results in 1.25% mastery for us, which results in 0.425% extra HPM and HPS. Haste compared to mastery: 65.6% HPM and 329% HPS.

Now, the entire point of this is pointless unless someone can equate the value of mana, and I see many people saying "Don't use haste, it costs mana, use this other stat and cast DL". Haste will increase the number of efficient spells you can fit in the boss fight, both raising HPS and total healing if you have enough mana to use HL the whole fight, which you should. Using Crit/Mastery/Spirit with HL when you don't OOM using it is less total healing then haste.

Upgrading those to DL with Spirit is still less healing per time then haste. But now you are spending more mana per healing, and more mana per second. As I said before, this is only even remotely worth it for Spirit, which gains almost enough mana per stat to allow DL to provide substitutes for HL for a net gain. The HPS gains of Crit/Mastery on DL are less then Haste on HL, meaning that as haste goes up, you can replace DLs with HL, HPM gains of Crit and Mastery also go down moving to the lesser HPM DL.

If you do not have enough mana for a fight to use HL+HS+HoPo dump, you need more gear, or your players need to stop messing up.

TLDR, if you want to try to spam the big heal like in Wrath, use Spirit + Mastery + Crit as your secondary stats. If you want to maximize Healing per Time and Healing per Mana, use Haste + Spirit for Single Target, and use Haste + Crit for raid healing.
Edited by Faelyne on 12/22/2010 1:42 AM PST
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6 Troll Shaman
0
So haste adds HR ticks. I did not know this, (NOT ADVOCATION HASTE STACKING) and EJ has the table posted. Anyone know how they derived this? I can understand how haste would add ticks, but I find it strange that haste is extending the duration of HR.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
12/22/2010 8:29 AMPosted by Lylthe
So haste adds HR ticks. I did not know this, (NOT ADVOCATION HASTE STACKING) and EJ has the table posted. Anyone know how they derived this? I can understand how haste would add ticks, but I find it strange that haste is extending the duration of HR.


Not extending, it'll always last for 10 seconds. Haste affects the time between ticks. Say you have 50% haste, theoretically you will get 20 ticks because they are 0.5 seconds apart.
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
6870
This was known for all of beta lol, and the mechanic has been around since 4.0 hit. All over time effects get additional ticks per haste, unless they are the exception, ala WoG HoT glyph (from what ive heard about it).

Tick number increases when the difference between current duration and normal duration is more then half a tick. Or, Total Ticks = Int(Base # Ticks * (1+ Haste%) + 0.5). Multiply that by the time for each tick for total duration, which is not constant, and for Holy Radiance will last anywhere from 9.524 to 10.476 seconds. Haste is a constant linear increase in HPS for Hots because of this. Haste is also a non-continuous increase in HPM
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Got it thanks. Something else to consider when while I work on my math.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12485
I'd just like to thank you, Lylthe.
I've just started healing after a life of tanking and found this guide extremely useful, irregardless of whatever revisions you feel it needs.
I still don't trust my skills for Heroics, but the trek to 85 was overall pleasent, never seeing my mana bar below 50% and causing no wipes.
Thank you!
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
6870
12/22/2010 3:23 PMPosted by Adt
dear math nerds,
:)

does anyone know how our ability "Judgment" has it's chance to HIT calculated?

i have 0% spell hit. in a raid, i cast 148 Judgements. 1 absorb (0.6%). 13 crit. none of my stats seem to explain this (melee or spell).

understanding how Judgment HIT is determined should be the deciding factor on if Enlightened Judgements is a waste of 2 points or not.

also... does anyone have any idea what the spell power coefficients are for our healing spells in Cata?


IIRC it should be ranged physical, or 8% melee hit to cap.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
SP Coefficients are up now on front page. LoD is inaccurate, but reduce it by 40% for an initial estimate.

More on ToR vs. BL
BWD10
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/cbja5o7a6685gd27/

Magmaw Kill pull (only 1 tank)
ToR - 14 HP
BL - None

Omnitron Kill pull
Tower of Radiance - 13 HP
Blessed Life - 7 HP
Edited by Lylthe on 12/22/2010 11:17 PM PST
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Okay, that should do it for updates. I think I've accounted for everything that the hotfix might have changed.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
I'm going to go ahead and call this a guide - its more an advanced guide but there is a ton of great beginner info in it as well. Some advanced players that are giving their first Paladins a go will be able to make use of this as well. Here's my sticky vote.

Thanks for the good work :D
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85 Draenei Paladin
3405
12/13/2010 1:13 PMPosted by Lylthe
I would shoot for 774 haste. This is reasonable to get, it will bring your HL and DL below 2 seconds, a common boss swing timer, and it will give you 13 ticks of HR. Any haste beyond that is purely personal choice. It's not wrong, it's not right, it's how well it works for YOU.


i don't know if this is correct, my haste is 1197 and my DL and HL are still well above 2 sec.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
12/24/2010 7:34 AMPosted by Bloodiness
i don't know if this is correct, my haste is 1197 and my DL and HL are still well above 2 sec.
9% from Judging, and 5% from raid group I believe? :D
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7350
short et sweet:
Haste makes low mps spells have higher hps, thereby improving hps AND mana resouces.
Haste allows the quicker acumulation of holy power during higher damage periods, again improving hps and mana resources.
-
That being said, im starting to think that hastes value diminishs greatly once you reach the plateau of being able to HL/DL x2 + 1 instant between HS CDs. Its probably better to get there then focus on crit until its possible to get enough haste to fit 3x HL/DL between HS CDs. Im just going full on haste cuz im too lazy to run the numbers, and i really like the healing style with full on haste
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
6870
12/24/2010 8:42 PMPosted by Rathimis
short et sweet:
Haste makes low mps spells have higher hps, thereby improving hps AND mana resouces.
Haste allows the quicker acumulation of holy power during higher damage periods, again improving hps and mana resources.
-
That being said, im starting to think that hastes value diminishs greatly once you reach the plateau of being able to HL/DL x2 + 1 instant between HS CDs. Its probably better to get there then focus on crit until its possible to get enough haste to fit 3x HL/DL between HS CDs. Im just going full on haste cuz im too lazy to run the numbers, and i really like the healing style with full on haste


...

With 0 haste from gear, casting Holy Shock -> Holy Light -> Holy Light -> Holy Light -> Holy Shock is already better then only using 2 holy lights, even when they are not 2s in duration. People are getting caught up on crap that is irrelevent. 2s HL/DL is not a breakpoint of any significance...
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