Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting

6 Troll Shaman
0
Huh, that is interesting. Were sections of that log omitted? I don't see any raw melee attacks which could proc SoI in that SS.
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
6870
Its pretty much impossible to use CS without getting a melee strike at the same instant afaik, though I suppose a /cast CS, /stopattack macro might do the trick.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8650
01/03/2011 9:20 PMPosted by Lylthe
Huh, that is interesting. Were sections of that log omitted? I don't see any raw melee attacks which could proc SoI in that SS.


No. If you notice how my character is oriented, you're able to use Crusader Strike without melee attacking. Also, "You're facing the wrong way" is spammed on the top of my screen.

Picked up the idea while browsing the Ret thread on EJ.
Edited by Rayocell on 1/4/2011 8:17 AM PST
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HoSac is a great defensive CD. Macro it to Divine Protection (not bubble). With our selfhealing and an extra damage reducing CD, then the transferred damage is trivial. The cooldowns line up nicely as well. I found the idea to macro these together on a thread I can't find anymore, so if someone can link it, I'll give credit accordingly.

Lay on Hands is an AMAZING heal. This is basically a 2nd life for somebody. Don't hesitate to use it if you need it.


I will definitely try this hand of sacrifice/divine protection combination. Looks good...

Lay on hands actually can give monster heals to 2 people as the beacon gets half.

I am liking holy radiance more and more. The screen looks like a christmas tree. I use it when the group is stacked. I love the fact that I can lay other heals on top of this one!
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85 Draenei Paladin
3360
Crit is awful. Period.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
01/04/2011 9:57 PMPosted by Redblueblurr
I don't get why Blizz stacked it all with so much Spirit and so many pieces do not have haste.
Maybe you should question your beloved Haste instead of Blizzards ability to design gear properly for the game they designed?
Crit is awful. Period.
Wrong. It could be more valuable, but relative to the other stats we benefit from its not the least be awful!
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6 Troll Shaman
0
WOOHOO! The stickies have arrived! I really want to thank everyone for their input. Without you guys, this thread wouldn't have half the quality it does.

Rock on and keep those green bars filled.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7435
01/04/2011 11:20 PMPosted by Lylthe
WOOHOO! The stickies have arrived! I really want to thank everyone for their input. Without you guys, this thread wouldn't have half the quality it does.

Rock on and keep those green bars filled.



Gratz man!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8650
01/04/2011 9:57 PMPosted by Redblueblurr
I am curious though.. WTF is the deal with the Pally JP and VP gear? I don't get why Blizz stacked it all with so much Spirit and so many pieces do not have haste.


I'm baffled as to why our tier has either crit/spirit or mastery/spirit, when mastery is pretty much an undesired stat. 2pc and 4pc set bonuses aren't bad, but the stats aren't what I want.

I suppose you can always reforge it, though :-/
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
Are people dieing because your casts are too slow? [If] Yes, get more haste.

I feel that the above is not being read or understood by many in the community and it saddens me every time someone thinks this sort of thing means "haste keeps people from dying".

It means, if you start a cast and by the time it has finished your target dies - you need more haste.

With health pools where they are in Cataclysm I find it highly unlikely ANYONE can claim this, even once. Haste is not all bad though, it is put to good use! It just needs to be taken down a peg. Badly, I feel.

Consider how much more a difference better reaction time, or even a better server ping can change the value of your haste. If you are quicker and you have better ping, you suddenly don't need the haste you had before! Valuing this at 100% effectiveness is like saying Mastery is 100% effective - it just isn't. Note: Irony below, keep reading.

I'm just certain that Haste should not be valued over Crit and Mastery, at least not in 359 gear. Some haste is good, especially for Holy Radiance, but beyond that I don't feel it contributes as much as it seems.

-------

On another note, I recorded data for a Magmaw kill tonight in my 25 man raid. The problem is, I lost the Recount data again. #@%#!!!!!!!!!!!!

At first, with the corrections I was making to my spread sheet (if you look earlier in the threat at page 8 I have corrected my post as well) it looked promising. Then I realized that to have a complete accurate representation of the value of Mastery I needed not only a breakdown of the effective healing output but the overhealing output as well, including the individual spells overhealing amounts. At the very least, I would need a spell by spell breakdown of TOTAL healing. I have only effective healing.

To give help you fully understand this - based on the EFFECTIVE healing I put out, my Mastery absorbs are displaying as OVER 100% on this parse (barely, but over none the less). This is because my Mastery was either used at or near a 100% effective rate, or my overhealing represents a significant portion of the absorb shields, or both.

Basically, Skada is not quite enough. It shows a spell by spell breakdown of effective healing, but refuses to display the same breakdown by spell for overheals like Recount can.

Irony:
Valuing this at 100% effectiveness is like saying Mastery is 100% effective - it just isn't.


To make use of the data, here is the percentages with the assumption that the overhealing per spell was exactly equal to the effective healing per spell percentages. Since the data is incomplete I won't bother showing the details, but know that we're we to see the actual numbers this aught to be more in favor of Mastery (since my cast spells were inevitably more effective than Beacon, PotI, and the like).

100 Mastery = ~0.299%

My conclusion is still that Mastery is equal to Crit, or as close as we can approximate without some seriously heavy math, testing, and such. For two stats that are not critical (ha) to balance out, it may simply be best to value them equally.

For me this means I need them both to lie somewhere in the 18% range currently (after spirit is maxed out and haste is at its 6% plateau).
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
01/05/2011 12:01 AMPosted by Rayocell
I'm baffled as to why our tier has either crit/spirit or mastery/spirit, when mastery is pretty much an undesired stat. 2pc and 4pc set bonuses aren't bad, but the stats aren't what I want.

I suppose you can always reforge it, though :-/
Are you guys ignoring everything I am saying? Mastery and Crit are statistically lower output than Haste, but Haste's benefits are being heavily weighed upon by its downsides.

Crit and Mastery do not HAVE downsides. They simply add to your healing output, at their effective rate, at no cost at all to you.

*grumble*
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
6870
I'm baffled as to why our tier has either crit/spirit or mastery/spirit, when mastery is pretty much an undesired stat. 2pc and 4pc set bonuses aren't bad, but the stats aren't what I want.

I suppose you can always reforge it, though :-/
Are you guys ignoring everything I am saying? Mastery and Crit are statistically lower output than Haste, but Haste's benefits are being heavily weighed upon by its downsides.

Crit and Mastery do not HAVE downsides. They simply add to your healing output, at their effective rate, at no cost at all to you.

*grumble*


The downside is a mathematical limitation based on the logarithmic scaling of stats on items, and the continued implementation of gear with exactly 5 stats on it, results in exactly 3 dyanimc stats to choose from at any one time. Spirit is over 2x the effectiveness of Crit or Mastery in terms of increasing total healing per total healing spent. Haste is also over 2x the effectiveness of Crit or Mastery in terms of total healing per total time. Logically there is no possible way to for two stats operating at less then 50% efficiency to overtake two stats who's individual benefit is more then that of both Crit and mastery combined.

Said another way:
100 Haste is more raw max HPS then 100 Crit + 100 Mastery.
100 Spirit is more raw Healing per total mana* then 100 Crit + 100 Mastery.

When you look at 100 Haste + 100 Spirit, the other stats look pathetic.

*Ok this is not technically correct, but is rather just a typographical cop-out. In a fight where you have enough mana to use HL the entire duration, spirit will allow more DLs, resulting in more Healing per Time, via more total mana, but at a lesser HPM rate, which is irrelevent because we already had enough mana, per se.
Edited by Faelyne on 1/5/2011 1:14 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8650
01/05/2011 12:33 AMPosted by Rabel
I'm baffled as to why our tier has either crit/spirit or mastery/spirit, when mastery is pretty much an undesired stat. 2pc and 4pc set bonuses aren't bad, but the stats aren't what I want.

I suppose you can always reforge it, though :-/
Are you guys ignoring everything I am saying? Mastery and Crit are statistically lower output than Haste, but Haste's benefits are being heavily weighed upon by its downsides.

Crit and Mastery do not HAVE downsides. They simply add to your healing output, at their effective rate, at no cost at all to you.

*grumble*


And what are the downsides of haste? If I can cast my HL and DL faster, then there would be a much less need to cast FoL unless someone was in dire need of heals. I can cast my efficient healer longer before having to switch to another heal. The GCD is shorter, thus enabling me to perform more actions if I needed to.

Haste allows me to react to situations faster. There are still times where I felt I needed to do something a bit faster. I don't understand the downsides you are talking about.

The cost of actively going after crit and mastery, to me, is the fact that I'm relying on chance to save me. With haste, I KNOW how fast my actions and casts are going to be, and I can plan what heal to use accordingly. With crit, I have to pray to the RNG gods that my HL or DL crits to bring someone up. If it doesn't crit, I'll need to cast it again increasing the risk of overhealing if someone snipes my heals or increasing the risk the person will die because the throughput isn't there. I can't count on mastery saving someone. Even with a 20% shield, I'm looking at a 5k bubble for a 25k divine light on one person. It's great if it's for the tank, but for that random raid member that was below 50% and needed a big heal? That bubble is more than likely wasted.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
6125
The downside is that you spend a fortune of itemization for very little improvement. Remember that haste suffers heavily from diminishing returns and due to our natural 12% haste from talents plus 5% from raid buffs, those diminishing returns are already severely elevated.

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6 Troll Shaman
0
Haha, didn't we have this exact same discussion on page 4?

Does YOUR playstyle cause you to OOM? If Yes, get more spirit.

Does YOUR playstyle need more cast speed? If Yes, get more haste.

If no to both: do you have ~20% raid buffed crit? If No, get more crit.

If Yes, try to keep crit rating:mastery mastery 1:1.
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85 Draenei Paladin
6100
Yay, stickied. <3
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