Cata unfortunately not a return to TBC.

85 Worgen Druid
4860
12/10/2010 8:24 PMPosted by Moohammadali
I've yet to hear a convincing reason as to why it was necessary to have such small heals in order to make mana matter--the primary reason given for the changes.


Well, I'd say that part of the reason that mana never really mattered in Wrath would be that healing far outscaled most health pools. There's definitely room to argue the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction, but since the instances are being completed by players currently, that argument loses some traction.

Also, the smaller scale heals actually increase the relative value of Crit and Spellpower when compared to Haste. Considering how inflated Haste became in value for healers during Wrath, I think this is a good thing.

So 2 reasons I personally find acceptable.
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85 Tauren Druid
6940
12/11/2010 12:33 AMPosted by Practical
I think you should really read this blog he posted some time ago. And not just skim over it and say "I know what he's saying already," but really read and comprehend his points.


Why does everyone assume those of us who disagree with the new model can't comprehend it? Some don't, I'm sure, but I read and understood GC's points just fine when he first made that post. At that point, I was hopeful, thinking we'd be returning to something similar to TBC-era healing, where overhealing could wipe a raid at 5-10% when a healer went OOM, but when I could instead lay on heavy heals at the expense of my mana pool if needed.

Wrath was a spamfest that, at least post-Naxx for druids, was often boring to heal. I've not said otherwise. Mana does matter now, as it should. That part's fine. My argument is that a mana-matters model could've been implemented without so heavily nerfing the size of our heals relative to health pools. That model has already existed in the game.

12/11/2010 12:40 AMPosted by Edryd
Well, I'd say that part of the reason that mana never really mattered in Wrath would be that healing far outscaled most health pools. There's definitely room to argue the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction, but since the instances are being completed by players currently, that argument loses some traction.


I've been successful healing regulars so far. I doubt that will change in heroics, depending, of course, on the group. It's not a matter of whether or not healers can complete the content but whether or not it's enjoyable when they do. Certain people will probably enjoy the smaller-scaling heals. I personally find the idea regressive, for reasons I've already outlined. Blizz swung the pendulum way too far, given what I've read on forums far less QQ-ey than this one.

I'm still not convinced, but I'm open to further discussion.
Edited by Moohammadali on 12/11/2010 3:47 AM PST
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85 Tauren Paladin
6700
12/11/2010 3:44 AMPosted by Moohammadali
I've been successful healing regulars so far. I doubt that will change in heroics, depending, of course, on the group. It's not a matter of whether or not healers can complete the content but whether or not it's enjoyable when they do. Certain people will probably enjoy the smaller-scaling heals. I personally find the idea regressive, for reasons I've already outlined. Blizz swung the pendulum way too far, given what I've read on forums far less QQ-ey than this one.

I'm still not convinced, but I'm open to further discussion.


I want to know why you feel this way overall. HP Pools go up, heals stay where they are at. At Wrath this would be a very bad idea. However now, when damage output isn't as fast (which was the problem), it's okay for heals to be the same because no one will be dying as fast as they were before.

Unless, they die to stupid stuff. Fire. Poisons. Earthquakes/etc.
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85 Tauren Druid
6940
12/11/2010 6:12 AMPosted by Practical
I want to know why you feel this way overall. HP Pools go up, heals stay where they are at. At Wrath this would be a very bad idea. However now, when damage output isn't as fast (which was the problem), it's okay for heals to be the same because no one will be dying as fast as they were before.


Because I enjoy being able to top someone off quickly if the situation calls for it, at the risk of running OOM near the end of an encounter. If such a system is balanced correctly, as it was up through most of TBC, it would still allow for decision-making and encourage the use of efficient heals while also allowing us to blow mana to get a tank back up in the short-term at the potential expense of the long-term. This would also, I think, encourage greater variety in gearing, speccing, and gemming.

Because I don't enjoy a regressive healing structure in which I feel like the group is carrying me. I don't want to be able to carry a terribad group as I did frequently in Wrath, but I want to feel like I'm pulling my weight. Poor heal scaling, in my opinion, will not allow that in any kind of difficult (heroic/raid) content.
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85 Tauren Paladin
6700
12/11/2010 1:09 PMPosted by Moohammadali

Because I enjoy being able to top someone off quickly if the situation calls for it

Topping people off only makes them lazy, because they know you'll just save them.
at the risk of running OOM near the end of an encounter.

Running OOM should relatively be a risk at all parts of a fight, not just the end.

If such a system is balanced correctly, as it was up through most of TBC, it would still allow for decision-making and encourage the use of efficient heals while also allowing us to blow mana to get a tank back up in the short-term at the potential expense of the long-term. This would also, I think, encourage greater variety in gearing, speccing, and gemming.

How can you say it was balanced when classes were so OP back then that it hurt? I am not saying that gear variety in gearing/speccing/gemming is bad but honestly you can do that now as it depends on the person.

Because I don't enjoy a regressive healing structure in which I feel like the group is carrying me. I don't want to be able to carry a terribad group as I did frequently in Wrath, but I want to feel like I'm pulling my weight. Poor heal scaling, in my opinion, will not allow that in any kind of difficult (heroic/raid) content.

You're pulling your weight by keeping them alive as much as you can. A lot of that belongs to the DPS themselves to make it easier on you.

And if the heal scaling wasn't very good, explain please how beta testers were able to do raids to begin with.
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85 Tauren Druid
6940
12/11/2010 1:38 PMPosted by Practical
Topping people off only makes them lazy, because they know you'll just save them.


Then why was CC such a vital part of TBC, including heroics and raids like SSC and TK?

Running OOM should relatively be a risk at all parts of a fight, not just the end.


Of course. Mine was a simplistic explanation, but the principle remains the same: you spam big heals to top people off at the risk of running out of mana. If people continue not to avoid avoidable damage by interrupting or getting out of the fire or the tank doesn't manage his CDs properly, you could run OOM sooner rather than later. But you'd still have the ability to top someone off quickly at the expense of your mana bar and longevity.

How can you say it was balanced when classes were so OP back then that it hurt?


That's why I specifically said most of TBC. Classes didn't become brokenly OP until late-BT and Sunwell (and especially when the Wrath changes started being implemented). I know it's difficult to see back past Wrath, but really think about T4, T5, and early T6 raiding for a second.

12/11/2010 1:38 PMPosted by Practical
And if the heal scaling wasn't very good, explain please how beta testers were able to do raids to begin with.


Again, it's not a matter of our ability to complete the content but rather our enjoyment factor while doing so. For many of us (end-of-the-world QQers aside), poor scaling plain isn't fun. I respect that it is for other people, and I respectfully disagree. I'm just trying to state my opinion in a non-crybaby way, in the hopes that Blizzard will re-evaluate their stance as we enter difficult content.
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100 Human Priest
19865
Again, it's not a matter of our ability to complete the content but rather our enjoyment factor while doing so. For many of us (end-of-the-world QQers aside), poor scaling plain isn't fun. I respect that it is for other people, and I respectfully disagree. I'm just trying to state my opinion in a non-crybaby way, in the hopes that Blizzard will re-evaluate their stance as we enter difficult content.


Yep, this is how I feel. My opinion is that the new healing design is inherently unfun.
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85 Human Paladin
4475
I've played beta and I'm not playing Cata until some adjustments are made.

The problem with Cata's Healing implementation is the scaling does not parallel DPS.

DPS/Damage scaled with level but healing output decreased while cost went up.

This inverse ratio will have a negative feedback with the community. I'm not 100% in agreement with Blizz on this one.

They should buff all healing spells by 20%, I believe they will be doing so in the next few days or weeks.

It's ridiculous that an expensive heal cost a lot of mana heals for only a little more than the medium heals. Why use it at all.

The cheapest spell is also the most cost effective spell these days.




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90 Blood Elf Priest
8795
I have read through this post and i think, I understand most of the points being made. Most of them are correct to, I might add.

Mana needs matter, I get it, I really do. Healing was a mindless game of wack-a-mole in WotLK, if a bar was going down, fill it up, with no regard towards running out of mana.

I have found that some classes @ 85, are fine, others not so much. I can only speak towards priest, because thats what I am. I would be OK with the changes, if the spell Heal cast a touch faster, its cheap, its a small heal, things that I understand, but it just takes way too long to cast. I have found it to be almost a necessity to use it, to conserve mana.

But along the lines of what I believe the OP to be saying, if I use the cheap mana friendly heal and get behind... the when I decide to use my big guns, Greater Heal, it should heal like a "Greater Heal".
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85 Human Priest
2175
Seems the people that aren't just frothing at the mouth that healing isn't mindless anymore are just Really missing having a goto wtfbbq heal. The kind that if it crits is basically a 1%-100 deal. Or something in that ballpark, if you get it off you have a good bit of breathing room again. But how do you add that in? It has to cost way more and/or be a even slower heal. What happens when we get past the first tier? Get crit and haste out of the basement again. Convince me it has a real place, and won't break things as we scale and regen creeps back up. I believe a ceiling on burst healing is good.
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85 Draenei Shaman
4845
12/11/2010 12:19 AMPosted by Sedivy
12/11/2010 12:11 AMPosted by Lucyferr
I'm a touch worried that this new model will boil down to nothing more than spamming 'heal' and keeping renew on the tank, and sparing a heal for the DPS when I can.

Don't be.
There is a lot of heal spam and renew is kept up anyway if you're holy. But there's tons of other spells. I pop all my cds on almost every encounter (SF, HoH, DH, GS). It's challenging. It's fun. You gotta decide and decide well what to use and when. Spamming crap mindlessly will result in fail. You gotta plan out your fight.
It's awesome:)

I'm finding the same. I seem to be in the minority, but after having healed all the 5man runs (nonH, need 2ilvl to start on those), from a shaman perspective healing seems fine.

Some encounters might need a bit of tweaking, agreed, and maybe, just maybe, upping by 1.2 or 1.4 our big heals might make them more satisfying (we all have messed up crit right now of course, but that's gear). That's about it for me, and even as is, things are fine.

More so, the fact that now you kinda have to CC in some runs, and focus fire, and can't just roll mobs, has brought back some interaction between players in pugs. No more the runs where you click your LFD pop, say hi, and then not a line is typed until the "bai" at the end of the run, decent PUGs talk now.

I also noticed my healing is a lot tighter than it was even in raids in wotlk, and knowing the encounter and when you can leave the group at 30% hp, and when you really can't, makes a big difference.
The few runs I did as ele, I saw a lot of healers using big heals in panic mode because everybody was low a lot of the time. I think that's where most of the oom complaints come from, you have to be seriously smart about your mana now.
Druids, going by some extremely skilled players I know and their feelings, do seem to be a bit broken at present time though. Pallies, shammies and priests in my guild and between friends are doing fine it seems, I know I am.

I'm liking it. Not as frustrating as vanilla was on mana (I have started liking spirit and occasionally keep an eye on the 5s rule though), and maybe a little bit harder than TBC, with some decent mechanics here and there. So far so good, things got better imo, I don't fall asleep at my keyboard anymore. Sorry for those of you who don't seem to enjoy it.
Edited by Hoofnpuff on 12/11/2010 3:34 PM PST
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85 Tauren Paladin
6700
12/11/2010 1:55 PMPosted by Moohammadali

Then why was CC such a vital part of TBC, including heroics and raids like SSC and TK?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. CC is important now as it was in SSC and TK. When you heal for a whole health bar, the value of CC goes down because there's no need to do it when the healer can just save you.


Of course. Mine was a simplistic explanation, but the principle remains the same: you spam big heals to top people off at the risk of running out of mana. If people continue not to avoid avoidable damage by interrupting or getting out of the fire or the tank doesn't manage his CDs properly, you could run OOM sooner rather than later. But you'd still have the ability to top someone off quickly at the expense of your mana bar and longevity.

You do have the ability to top off someone quickly at the expense of your mana bar and longevity: Your fast heal.


That's why I specifically said most of TBC. Classes didn't become brokenly OP until late-BT and Sunwell (and especially when the Wrath changes started being implemented). I know it's difficult to see back past Wrath, but really think about T4, T5, and early T6 raiding for a second.

This is debatable depending on the class you played then. I.E. "Blizzard loves Druids." Was the chime I heard very often.



Again, it's not a matter of our ability to complete the content but rather our enjoyment factor while doing so. For many of us (end-of-the-world QQers aside), poor scaling plain isn't fun. I respect that it is for other people, and I respectfully disagree. I'm just trying to state my opinion in a non-crybaby way, in the hopes that Blizzard will re-evaluate their stance as we enter difficult content.

And out of everything the fact that you can state your opinion without crying is great -- thank you for that. It's rare on these forums these days and I appreciate it.

As I've said many times before it's a paradigm shift that's difficult to take hold of. I just healed a heroic and the group was great. We wiped once due to a SPriest not using LoF and saving me. After that we just did the whole heroic. DPS are getting better gear, tanks are getting better; It gets better.
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85 Tauren Druid
6940
12/11/2010 3:45 PMPosted by Practical
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. CC is important now as it was in SSC and TK.


Exactly. Yet in TBC raiding, my big and/or expensive heals hit for a higher percentage of health bars than they do now. It's possible to have mana, CC, interrupts, and CDs matter and open up spell choice without having heals scale so terribly. It's just not as easy, which may (or may not) be why Blizzard chose the current implementation in the first place.

12/11/2010 3:45 PMPosted by Practical
You do have the ability to top off someone quickly at the expense of your mana bar and longevity: Your fast heal.


Fast heals don't top someone off by any stretch. My Regrowth hits for a piddly amount. It's meant to keep a target alive in a situation where generic Heal or Greater Heal wouldn't have time to land, and it serves that role in a so-so way. Currently, my Healing Touch, which is supposed to be my BOOM heal, hits a tank for ~15% of his HP non-crit. I don't want to be able to top him off in one cast, as I realize that will scale like Wrath, but I think there's a fine line that could stand to see some spells buffed by 20-25%, perhaps with the mana cost slightly adjusted to compensate.

This is debatable depending on the class you played then. I.E. "Blizzard loves Druids." Was the chime I heard very often.


That was really more a PvP complaint with cheap LB stacks being rolled without end. For one or two arena seasons. Rolling x3 LB on three tanks may have been a potent way to mitigate incoming damage, but it's hard to argue Blizz loved us by making it so viable. =P I do get what you're saying, though, but hasn't "Blizz loves class X" always been a point of contention?
Edited by Moohammadali on 12/11/2010 4:21 PM PST
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85 Troll Druid
4620
12/11/2010 4:40 PMPosted by Pj
I'm really confused why you guys think this is some deep, complex healing system.

They made heals bad. There. That's your deep system.

They gave you a crappy heal to spam and all your other heals are horrifically inefficient

The new system is "how can I get away with using as few of the healing spells in my arsenal as possible"

That is such a horrible, ill conceived system. You'd have trouble coming up with a worse one. If that challenges you, and that's what you wanted out of the game, then I'm happy for you. But honestly, from a gameplay perspective, I find it to be an atrocious idea.

CC should be a part of the game, and the faceroll that wotlk became should definitely happen. But this system is the equivalent of allowing mages to only ever cast fireball, or rogues to only ever hit sinister strike. No thanks


QFT
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85 Tauren Paladin
6700
12/11/2010 4:18 PMPosted by Moohammadali

Exactly. Yet in TBC raiding, my big and/or expensive heals hit for a higher percentage of health bars than they do now. It's possible to have mana, CC, interrupts, and CDs matter and open up spell choice without having heals scale so terribly. It's just not as easy, which may (or may not) be why Blizzard chose the current implementation in the first place.


Health bars were relative to the healing that came after it. Down ranking allowed it to be stupid-OP. Now, healing isn't relative to their HP, but rather serves as a way to have them survive. Healing a smaller chunk of damage doesn't mean that the following damage that will be taken will be for the same amount.

Damage isn't like Wrath. Please take it from someone who is healing Heroics.


Fast heals don't top someone off by any stretch. My Regrowth hits for a piddly amount. It's meant to keep a target alive in a situation where generic Heal or Greater Heal wouldn't have time to land, and it serves that role in a so-so way. Currently, my Healing Touch, which is supposed to be my BOOM heal, hits a tank for ~15% of his HP non-crit. I don't want to be able to top him off in one cast, as I realize that will scale like Wrath, but I think there's a fine line that could stand to see some spells buffed by 20-25%, perhaps with the mana cost slightly adjusted to compensate.

Yet Flash of Heal still can do the job towards what you're describing. A heal that can top someone off for a costly resource.

If you're suggesting a small buff so that you can feel 'safer' as a healer -- I understand that to a certain extent. There are times in a fight where I tell myself "Oh man he's gonna die. Wish my heals hit for more." and Then I pause. I look at what's happening. I realize I don't have to heal everyone to full or top them off -- it's impossible and costly to do so anyway. So I use HR and Perhaps a 2 HP LoD and they're fine. Unless they do something stupid. In which case, wouldn't by my issue -- it's theirs.

You want the ability to heal to cover for a person's mistakes it seems. Which sounds very healer-esque so I can sympathize with that. However healing was effected not only because they wanted to make it fun for us -- they wanted to make it harder for DPS.


That was really more a PvP complaint with cheap LB stacks being rolled without end. For one or two arena seasons. Rolling x3 LB on three tanks may have been a potent way to mitigate incoming damage, but it's hard to argue Blizz loved us by making it so viable. =P I do get what you're saying, though, but hasn't "Blizz loves class X" always been a point of contention?


Your point is valid, however that only highlights the point I'm saying; Classes were OP back then and thus giving that same satisfying "Ahhh" feeling from Wrath. They just displayed it in two different ways.

To be clear, GC never stated they wanted Cata healing to be like BC. They liked a facet of BC, which was the triage and spell selection.
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85 Tauren Druid
6940
Busy week. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this.

12/11/2010 7:38 PMPosted by Practical
You want the ability to heal to cover for a person's mistakes it seems. Which sounds very healer-esque so I can sympathize with that. However healing was effected not only because they wanted to make it fun for us -- they wanted to make it harder for DPS.


That's not entirely true. I want to be able to cover for people's mistakes in the short-term at the expense of my mana bar and potential longevity issues long-term. That gives me a feeling of power while also forcing the dps to pick it up and try to correct our course in the encounter before I go oom and we wipe.

If you're suggesting a small buff so that you can feel 'safer' as a healer -- I understand that to a certain extent. There are times in a fight where I tell myself "Oh man he's gonna die. Wish my heals hit for more." and Then I pause. I look at what's happening. I realize I don't have to heal everyone to full or top them off -- it's impossible and costly to do so anyway. So I use HR and Perhaps a 2 HP LoD and they're fine. Unless they do something stupid. In which case, wouldn't by my issue -- it's theirs.


It's not a question of safety. I feel as safe healing now as I did in Wrath when I had to pound ridiculously fast Nourishes on the tank to keep him alive in some content. It's a question of fun--of feeling both powerful and challenged--and that's a balance I don't think Blizzard has reached with the new model. I feel challenged, but I don't by any means feel powerful when I see HT crit on a dps for 25-33% of their health bar. And that scaling is just going to get worse as gear gets better.

12/11/2010 7:38 PMPosted by Practical
To be clear, GC never stated they wanted Cata healing to be like BC. They liked a facet of BC, which was the triage and spell selection.


That's the problem: spells hit for so little, in general, that I don't really have a legitimate selection to make. x3 LB on the tank, slow, casted heals like Nourish and HT to heal most incoming damage, and an occasional WG on light group damage. /snore. If anything, it's slightly more boring then Wrath, when I healed with Rejuv all over, WG, and Nourish as needed. At least then the majority of my healing came from HoTs, which felt right given the class I've chosen.

Again, I think they took the easier road to balancing and left healers with a regressive, unfun system. You're free to disagree; I'm certainly glad some people are still having fun. I've had more fun questing as feral. When that runs out, what will I be left with? If I want to dps in raids, I'll find another game for it.
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