Mana at 85 is less an issue than at 80...

85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
I have to disagree with Elo, Mana is still and always will be an issue for classes.
At 80, it was pretty much a non-issue.
Maybe the topic name was a bit misleading.
I think only a paladin at 85 would believe mana is a non-issue considering LoD is alot better than WoG at single target healing when u get it right.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
20350
12/13/2010 5:47 AMPosted by Orcabull
Oh look another paladin without mana issues. I'm a druid, I used to be famous for having a infinite mana pool and being unable to go oom.


Our druid is doing fine on most fights. He's not putting out the same hps as the paladins but he's relatively close, and he's keeping his assigned targets alive.

Don't play your druid like it's WotLK and you'll be fine. Yes, they're underpowered, but that's more due to not having an effective tool to handle damage on raid members that's not AoE or at least multi-target. In a raid environment you can put them on tank healing and they do quite well. Honestly our druid seems to be faring better than our shaman on a lot of fights (we have rotated between two paladins, a druid, and a shaman healer for our 10-mans this week. They were the first ones to hit 85 and heroic spam to proper gear level for the first week of raiding).

12/13/2010 8:18 AMPosted by Vidomina
This looks like an attempt to dismiss anyone who has an opinion different from yours by labeling them as a "faceroller". Bad Form.


I've had more fun healing the entry-level normal raid content than the vast majority of WotLK content, including heroics. Why? Because the encounters require more thought. The dps burn phase on Ascendant Council, for example, is like the final phase of Professor Putricide except there's a lot of strategy involved in keeping your raid alive. In Putricide your raid would just fall over flat from damage no matter how skilled your healers were, and it was nearly constant among all guilds, but on the aforementioned fight you can significantly lengthen the time of that burn phase by playing intelligently.

This goes for the easy normal mode fights (new VoA-style boss, Conclave of Wind) just as much as the harder ones, so it's not a "Oh, you're a high-end masochist raider, you just like high difficulty" thing.

I'm scared of tanks on Cho'gall getting five-shot, instead of two-shot. Tank healing is definitely far superior in Cataclysm than WotLK, as the latter was pretty mindless even in high-end content.

All of the tanks have CDs that can be used in these cases. Shamans should be given one imo and so should druid healers (possibly something that cannot be cast on themselves).


I agree, hence the "not having the tools you need will decrease your enjoyment of the healing environment" factor. Part of the reason that makes paladin so fun is that we have several cooldowns to utilize - cooldowns are a very fun part of the Cata healing environment. Other healers should have access to that too, and mechanics like Swiftmend are outdated and should be replaced with something like Divine Favor or GotAK.

However, I get the feeling that most of the non-paladin people against the Cata healing environment would not enjoy it even if they played on a paladin, simply because their reasons for disliking it aren't due to the state of 85 healing itself.

I'm by no means a great healer.

I'm a casual, I downed SWP before WotLK, you'll notice I'm not a Kingslayer etc, but I have completed many of these so called "Horrorics" and I have come across many decent PuGs.

People will adapt. The new system is fine.


Yup. There's a definite disconnect between PUGs on live versus PUGs on beta who had a few weeks/months to get accustomed to the changes, especially with all of the factors noted in my post.

When 85 was first available on beta, the average PUG dps there did 3k a lot of the time too.

I have to disagree with Elo, Mana is still and always will be an issue for classes.

At 80, it was pretty much a non-issue.


I'm comparing entry-level WotLK to entry-level Cataclysm. I definitely think that mana at 85 is less an issue now than it was when we were first running Naxxramas/heroics/etc. then.

But regardless, it's all balanced around the content. You're supposed to last 6-8m+ raid encounters as a healer now. You weren't supposed to do so in early Wrath. Ditto for long 5-man fights.
Edited by Eloderung on 12/13/2010 8:48 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3710
I still feel that it's mostly about expectations. You can't do Heroics in quest greens with everyone standing in the proverbial fire, and still finish it in 20 minutes. I'm pretty ok with that.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
7300
I like how its usually Holy Pallies and people already epic geared saying Heroics arent hard to heal.

If dps and tanks can easily pull their weight in greens and blues, why are healers left out in the rain?
Reply Quote
12/13/2010 8:55 AMPosted by Krytstayne
I like how its usually Holy Pallies and people already epic geared saying Heroics arent hard to heal.

If dps and tanks can easily pull their weight in greens and blues, why are healers left out in the rain?

Just because it's usually us doesn't mean it's only us.

And how do you think those people got epically geared in the first place?
Edited by Janaire on 12/13/2010 9:00 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
20350
12/13/2010 8:55 AMPosted by Krytstayne
I like how its usually Holy Pallies and people already epic geared saying Heroics arent hard to heal.

If dps and tanks can easily pull their weight in greens and blues, why are healers left out in the rain?


I wonder how these epics made their way onto this character?

It's a mystery to me.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
7300
Still, Blizzard wanted to make healing a challenge. I have an 80 resto druid, and healing ICC at 5k gs was cake. Resto shaman, 5k gs in ICC was cake. So i was excited about harder healing.
Dps and tanks can easily roll into a heroic use their brains they are fine, but healers can be exceptionally more intelligent and just as geared and not stand a chance. That isn't making the healing role req more skill, its making the healing role slowly go extinct.

One day, if this issue is not corrected, then everyone will be standing in Org(the new portal hub that Blizz said they were getting rid of [LOL]) waiting in long queue times for a holy pally to queue up.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
7300
12/13/2010 8:59 AMPosted by Eloderung
12/13/2010 8:55 AMPosted by Krytstayne
I like how its usually Holy Pallies and people already epic geared saying Heroics arent hard to heal.

If dps and tanks can easily pull their weight in greens and blues, why are healers left out in the rain?


I wonder how these epics made their way onto this character?

It's a mystery to me.


Quite possibly by queuing up as dps or tank, as I have to do now.
Reply Quote
85 Human Priest
3585
12/13/2010 8:59 AMPosted by Eloderung
12/13/2010 8:55 AMPosted by Krytstayne
I like how its usually Holy Pallies and people already epic geared saying Heroics arent hard to heal.

If dps and tanks can easily pull their weight in greens and blues, why are healers left out in the rain?


I wonder how these epics made their way onto this character?

It's a mystery to me.


If you are in epic gear, how many large heals does it take you to fill a tank health bar? How many fast heals to fill a caster health bar? I am curious about scaling.
Reply Quote
5 Human Warlock
0
Really it's simply a gear issue. My druid barely broke 329 and definitely runs on fumes during some heroics but the shaman in my guild has mostly 346 and pretty much cruises through them. In fact he's all but stopped doing heroics except the daily.

Looking at some of Elo's 10 man parses though it appears that pallys need to be tuned down quite a bit or the other classes need some significant buffs.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
20350

If you are in epic gear, how many large heals does it take you to fill a tank health bar? How many fast heals to fill a caster health bar? I am curious about scaling.


Tank hit points scale much faster than your heals will. Holy Light is hitting somewhere around 9k on tanks and Divine Light ~22k on tanks.

Tank damage isn't a huge deal though. Cho'gall is the hardest-hitting guy we've attempted so far and even he is like a five-shot boss... when he has both a tank damage debuff and self damage buff on him for a short period of time.

12/13/2010 9:49 AMPosted by Merise
Looking at some of Elo's 10 man parses though it appears that pallys need to be tuned down quite a bit or the other classes need some significant buffs.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightbringer/sabbie/advanced

Our shaman is much, much less geared than both of our paladins due to time constraints on heroic spamming. Gear makes a really huge difference. When we did beta raids with equally-geared premades, our healers were all a lot closer to one another - though we only threw two raid nights worth of experience into beta.

Plus you have to take into account roles in raids. Our non-paladin healers are focused more heavily on tank healing which will mean low hps.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-22rgjvbd4i6632ya/sum/healingDone/?enc=bosses&boss=41378

Here are Maloriak attempts last night. This fight doesn't have that much raid damage and the healers are a lot more closely aligned.

Paladins need to be tuned down, but I don't think it really needs to be a significant hit. Some other healers need to be tuned up of course (druid when raid healing non-clumped encounters, shaman need numbers buff and a powerful healing cooldown).

I think the biggest problem with paladins is not their numbers, but that we have far too many strong useful cooldowns that other healers lack. In my opinion, that should be solved by giving other healers more cooldowns (and perhaps making Avenging Wrath a dps only cooldown). LoD beacon xfer is hellishly powerful but I get the feeling that paladin tank healing would be too weak without it.

I should also note that Blizzard doesn't consider PotI to be worth looking at in the heal meters, as they consider it equal to shaman ankh and other "unique" abilities. The old forum link is gone but anyone following Ghostcrawler's discussion on the healer forums should remember this statement.

Anyways, I'm getting off-topic. The druid in my guild healed heroics 24 hours after Cata's release just like I did, and they're still being brought by many guilds when starting the content now. It is normal-mode content but they are more difficult than what's found in Wrath, and they are not trivial with the low gear levels people have now.
Edited by Eloderung on 12/13/2010 10:13 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Priest
3670
12/13/2010 7:28 AMPosted by Pocketpriest
Quests < Dungeons < Heroic Dungeons < Raiding

We need to gear up for each tier of content AND play at a skill level that each tier demands.

Hint! The above is now true of all roles


That's a problem.

I was talking to a rather rude fella in the tanking forums and was explaining that the simple fact is, for wrath we climbed on up and rode the tank's shoulders. It was a fun ride.

Cata is way more about the healers than the tanks, atm.

It doesn't matter if I have more hp than the tank, or within a 15% shot (since they should be gemming/enchanting--Yes, I know all gear of the same ilvl has the same base stam.

So it doesn't matter if you stand in fires, if you backpedal into other mobs, if you q'd for heroics as soon as you had an average of 329 in your bags, if it takes you 5 solid minutes to down a pack of mobs it's my fault if we wipe.

I mean We had the gearscore qq for something like a year and a half, but now that's not the problem. The problem is that a dk might be a tailor and crafting gear to sell and suddenly able to q heroics he shouldn't even be in. The problem is priests might have bags full of bop drops. Gearscore wasn't nearly as bad at this. At least it considered gear and enchants the player had on, and summarized the stats for you.
Edited by Whynot on 12/13/2010 10:16 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
8710
12/13/2010 7:07 AMPosted by Retà

Of course, I would have OOMd in the next few moments, but I didn't even get the chance - tank was already dead because the damage he was taking was so massive.


That is an issue with the Tank, not your output capability. A tank's job is to mitigate the damage they tank. DPS need to learn to watch out for themselves, moving out bad stuff and watching their threat.


12/13/2010 8:44 AMPosted by Eloderung
I've had more fun healing the entry-level normal raid content than the vast majority of WotLK content, including heroics. Why? Because the encounters require more thought. The


QFT.
And a note on your comments about PuG DPS. I'm a horrible boomkin, but I've dps'd some random pug instances, and the least I've done is 4k. I was the bottom, only above the healer. Everyone else routinely had 6k+. In these cases, the instances were challenging and fun.

I simply could not imagine anyone bringing less than 4k dps to a group. They must be doing nothing but white attacks while on auto-assist and pretty much /afk.

If your group is communicating and contributing, instances are more than doable.

For the most part, I've been healing. No I've not had the chance to get into a heroic yet, but I've done multiple normals. And they are so much fun. They are engaging, interactive and entertaining. Stonecore is my favorite so far on a side note. :p
Edited by Nestarielle on 12/13/2010 10:11 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
5225
12/13/2010 7:15 AMPosted by Pocketpriest
[quote="14063600364"]
We're back to the model we had in BC.

Quests < Dungeons < Heroic Dungeons < Raiding

We need to gear up for each tier of content AND play at a skill level that each tier demands.

Hint! The above is now true of all roles


Not true at all. I specced feral and, in half GREENS, did 13k dps on boss fights, 17k on trash, in heroic Lost City. Top DPS in gear that doesn't even meet the requirements to enter a heroic dungeon. I also had no enchants or gems and a suboptimal talent build. Yet in my nearly all blue/heroic healing gear, I cannot heal the 3rd boss because I go OOM simply by trying to heal through UNAVOIDABLE damage, i.e. the tank.
Reply Quote
98 Blood Elf Priest
8265
12/13/2010 10:07 AMPosted by Eloderung

If you are in epic gear, how many large heals does it take you to fill a tank health bar? How many fast heals to fill a caster health bar? I am curious about scaling.


Tank hit points scale much faster than your heals will. Holy Light is hitting somewhere around 9k on tanks and Divine Light ~22k on tanks.

Tank damage isn't a huge deal though. Cho'gall is the hardest-hitting guy we've attempted so far and even he is like a five-shot boss... when he has both a tank damage debuff and self damage buff on him for a short period of time.

12/13/2010 9:49 AMPosted by Merise
Looking at some of Elo's 10 man parses though it appears that pallys need to be tuned down quite a bit or the other classes need some significant buffs.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightbringer/sabbie/advanced

Our shaman is much, much less geared than both of our paladins due to time constraints on heroic spamming. Gear makes a really huge difference. When we did beta raids with equally-geared premades, our healers were all a lot closer to one another - though we only threw two raid nights worth of experience into beta.

Plus you have to take into account roles in raids. Our non-paladin healers are focused more heavily on tank healing which will mean low hps.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-22rgjvbd4i6632ya/sum/healingDone/?enc=bosses&boss=41378

Here are Maloriak attempts last night. This fight doesn't have that much raid damage and the healers are a lot more closely aligned.

Paladins need to be tuned down, but I don't think it really needs to be a significant hit. Some other healers need to be tuned up of course (druid when raid healing non-clumped encounters, shaman need numbers buff and a powerful healing cooldown).

I think the biggest problem with paladins is not their numbers, but that we have far too many strong useful cooldowns that other healers lack. In my opinion, that should be solved by giving other healers more cooldowns (and perhaps making Avenging Wrath a dps only cooldown). LoD beacon xfer is hellishly powerful but I get the feeling that paladin tank healing would be too weak without it.

I should also note that Blizzard doesn't consider PotI to be worth looking at in the heal meters, as they consider it equal to shaman ankh and other "unique" abilities. The old forum link is gone but anyone following Ghostcrawler's discussion on the healer forums should remember this statement.

Anyways, I'm getting off-topic. The druid in my guild healed heroics 24 hours after Cata's release just like I did, and they're still being brought by many guilds when starting the content now. It is normal-mode content but they are more difficult than what's found in Wrath, and they are not trivial with the low gear levels people have now.


Elo is right on the money. Heal balance is probably the closest it has ever been. There are a few issues here and there. Paladins need slight tuning down and druids might need something to help aoe heals. I am reluctant on the druid portion because they seemed very capable in beta even after the nerfs and it might just be healers needing to adjust to radically different play-style.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4310
so far, my experience has been very positive. I went from not really playing this character much and hating how easy and spammy healing was, to loving how dynamic and challenging it can be. I have gotten several compliments on my healing already and geniuinely like healing now. I have noticed when playing my Mage that other healers were having issues and thought that druids might be OP. Then I came to the forums and couldn't believe the QQ.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Priest
6920
12/13/2010 10:20 AMPosted by Rippster
12/13/2010 7:15 AMPosted by Pocketpriest
[quote="14063600364"]
We're back to the model we had in BC.

Quests < Dungeons < Heroic Dungeons < Raiding

We need to gear up for each tier of content AND play at a skill level that each tier demands.

Hint! The above is now true of all roles


Not true at all. I specced feral and, in half GREENS, did 13k dps on boss fights, 17k on trash, in heroic Lost City. Top DPS in gear that doesn't even meet the requirements to enter a heroic dungeon. I also had no enchants or gems and a suboptimal talent build. Yet in my nearly all blue/heroic healing gear, I cannot heal the 3rd boss because I go OOM simply by trying to heal through UNAVOIDABLE damage, i.e. the tank.


Next time you do that kind of dps in greens, link a screenshot or some kind of parse, because frankly I don't buy it.

As for you not being able to heal the third boss, are you sure you didn't run low on mana because you were healing people who were being hit by beams, walking in fire, being nailed by the phoenix, etc?

Because frankly, I healed it just fine. And I have been in a group where the resto druid, I went as dps, healed the fight just fine.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
10315
12/13/2010 6:01 AMPosted by Orcabull

I can practice this triage healing system all I want and still be oom because my heals are too weak due to piss poor scaling. I HAVE TO SPAM to keep the tanks alive on my boss fights. My best heal in absolutly perfect condition is a max of 25k. It costs 5600 mana(5096 w/ 2/2 Moonglow, which I have). It doesn't take long to go oom with a 70k mana pool using THAT spell.

I know I should use LBx3 and nourish but nourish cannt heal for #!!#.


Again you are healing heroics with quest greens and complaining that your spells aren't hitting hard enough. (Yes I do understand that my gear is not gemmed nor enchanted but my 10-man group is not ready to raid yet so I don't feel the need since I get through heroics fine)
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Priest
6920
12/13/2010 10:09 AMPosted by Whynot
12/13/2010 7:28 AMPosted by Pocketpriest
Quests < Dungeons < Heroic Dungeons < Raiding

We need to gear up for each tier of content AND play at a skill level that each tier demands.

Hint! The above is now true of all roles


That's a problem.

I was talking to a rather rude fella in the tanking forums and was explaining that the simple fact is, for wrath we climbed on up and rode the tank's shoulders. It was a fun ride.

Cata is way more about the healers than the tanks, atm.

It doesn't matter if I have more hp than the tank, or within a 15% shot (since they should be gemming/enchanting--Yes, I know all gear of the same ilvl has the same base stam.

So it doesn't matter if you stand in fires, if you backpedal into other mobs, if you q'd for heroics as soon as you had an average of 329 in your bags, if it takes you 5 solid minutes to down a pack of mobs it's my fault if we wipe.

I mean We had the gearscore qq for something like a year and a half, but now that's not the problem. The problem is that a dk might be a tailor and crafting gear to sell and suddenly able to q heroics he shouldn't even be in. The problem is priests might have bags full of bop drops. Gearscore wasn't nearly as bad at this. At least it considered gear and enchants the player had on, and summarized the stats for you.


Having to gear up for content is not at all a problem.

Everyone has the means to gear up appropriately for their role before entering even one heroic. There are ilvl 333 items in regular dungeons, there are epics available from faction vendors (you can reach Revered very quickly just through questing with most of the new factions, then all you need to do is hit exalted by wearing the tabbard in a handful of regular dungeons).

There are various crafted items, world drops and even quest rewards.

The problem is people are trying to do heroics the second they have the ilvl req. This means they're technically able to do the heroic, however its going to be one hell of a run. Heroics become much easier when people play well and are have some gear there to get them through the encounter.

I've only won a few heroic items that have replaced a few greens and immediately healing has become a lot easier. So maybe its the gear, but I bet you its also because people are learning that healers can't help you if you're too lazy to move out of the beam of death coming from the boss' eyes.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]