List of Paladin issues

85 Human Warrior
2790
Just a simple list, you know since we have been saying this for how long? First I would like to say thank you for at least fixing the mastery where it was requiring at least one HP to work, doesnt fix ret, but it helped make it more bearable.

These are not ideas to fix anything, just a list of problems (incoming long post)



- Mastery is a terrible stat for ret, it conflicts with our 31 point talent

- To follow Having so much RNG proc off of white swings...its just bad for the ret class, especially in pvp, a 2h (slow swing speed) melee class with not a lot of target uptime. I understand you want haste to be important for ret, but the thing is, the class has so much ramp up time to begin with, adding in the mastery and AoW RNG makes it very hard to be reliable and good dps pressure.

- Rotations with the RNG, we also understand you want the spec to have a higher skill cap, less faceroll. However, with inquisition, zealotry, mastery, AoW, Aveng W, Divine purpose, hammer...along with our normal attacks judge/crusader strike/wrath. Im going to say that maybe you gave ret paladins in a dps rotation too much RNG, but also maybe too many dps cooldowns and things to watch for? Things need to be involving and challenging yet fun, I think you may have taken it a bit too far.

- Dispels kill the class and rets the most, one button can take away our 31 point talent, our 81 ability, and our useful utility spells with one button. Something needs to be done with dispels in pvp, or the class needs to be re-evaluated in facing dispels. One spell should not make a class/spec nearly useless.

- Direction of ret in pvp, Lets break down what a ret paladin is. A 2 handed melee DPS, A ret specializes into dealing damage just like any other melee dps. A ret can heal, but its weak and mana expensive, healing becomes a defensive utility for himself or others.

What does a ret offer over other dps? damage pressure is very low unless the stars align and RNG is amazing. Other then that its not reliable. Utility of a paladin is not what it used to be, other classes have gotten amazing spells and abilities since vanilla. Hands are dispellable, ret heals are laughable and drops mana way to fast (But you wouldnt bring a ret to heal, its a dps spec, however its own heals act as a defensive utility and still are hurting), Rets reliable dps cooldowns are all dispellable.

it comes down to a simple question, why bring a Ret paladin over an arms warrior, feral druid, rogue, DK...etc etc. The utility does not come close to making up for the lack of dps pressure, its unreliable at best. And other classes utilites are becoming more and more amazing every expansion. Smoke bomb? Heroic leap? Those have amazing pvp potential for group usage.

Fact is in rets current state it will not be brought over any other melee dps, Paladins will find roles as Holy. Which is infuriating because I dont mind healing, but I did not roll a paladin to heal. I enjoy having it to throw out some utility or emergency heals every now and then, but I did not sign on to be pigeon holed into healing. We have been forced into healing to be competitive since vanilla. Ret has never been limited in competitive pvp by skill cap, it has been a class cap.

I say since vanilla...and its true. In competitive team/pvp paladins have always had to go holy or be left out. Ret finally got a foot hole in pve in wrath, but in pvp the only place ret was good was in duels and against bad player and/or in bad gear. Prot finally got a place as a tanking spec, even in wrath when ret was not very good in team play people migrated to prot for better results...

I really thought they were going to get it right with this new system, and I like it...its just not all there, which leads me to ask...

Why, with all the months before the release of cataclysm, before 85 on live, before when people in beta were voicing opinions and on the test realm...Why haven't the big Paladin (ret) issues been addressed?

If ret is just never going to be a viable pvp dps tree...then something needs to be said, I think the community is sick of being gimped compared to the other melee dps.

ret paladins are not asking to be OP, ret paladins just want to be as viable in a dps spot on teams as a warrior or DK, etc...

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90 Human Paladin
7530
I agree with you.

Our 81, 83 and 85 level abilities are a crap.
I'm still not sure if I'm getting any dps increase when I use Inquisition over Templar's Verdict.
Holy Radiance is laughable. For the healing it does, shouldn't have a cooldown. I'd rather cast a Flash of light.
GoAK Ret's version is also laughable. For a 5min cooldown, doesn't increase the dps much. Prot's version is so much better.

Zealotry, hand of light are fun but they don't fit with each other.
We are way too vulnerable to dispells. This means being balanced around facing bad players, in other way, not viable in high end PvP. When we are not dispelled we do great, when we are, we suck. We really do.
We are the squishiest spec in the game, outside of Divine shield, since we have no reliable defensive cooldown, nor absorbing shield, nor pasive defense. This doesn't help in make us viable for PvP.
Our self healing now is awful, and far from a real defense.

What seems to be fine is mobility. Honestly is better than ever was.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4140
im 84 with full 333 gear and im doin 6k dps.. thats just not correct blizz please fix this poor dps ret ! we neeed buff!
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why are you using a leather helm >.>
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85 Human Warrior
2790
12/10/2010 5:35 AMPosted by Loathing
Paladin thread spam should be bannable.


Yeah because wanting to play a desired spec, the only dps spec a class has in high end pvp and competitive pvp is such a crime.

gtfo troll, I say the more threads the better, when a class and or spec has problems the more people that voice there opinions, the more likely things will change.

pvp is about killing the other person or team, every single class should have one dps spec that is viable in pvp. Healing is very important, but healing is a role people need to want to spec into, not forced into. Blizzard doesnt want tanks to be much more then flag runners or node defenders, so prot is not going to be anywhere as viable as it was in WoTLK. I feel bad for prot warriors too, prot specs added a nice 3rd aspect to pvp instead of the dps/healer roles.

Since Vanilla ret paladins have been back of the bus to arms warriors. We dont want to be just like arms warriors in game play, we want the spec to be as viable as them in team play...thats not a hard concept to grasp.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3070
You probably should edit the title to read: "List or retribution issues" since that's the only thing you talk about.
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12/10/2010 5:31 AMPosted by Ninjahugs
why are you using a leather helm >.>

Its blizzard fault his deeps is low, clearly.
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12/10/2010 5:35 AMPosted by Loathing
Paladin thread spam should be bannable.


I will agree to this if we can get a stickied focus thread in return :)
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86 Troll Shaman
6740
IT never seems to fail pallys complain the most of any class YOUR class can do any role in the game and most the time do it best, why do ret pallys cry they cant do as much dps as a war, well because a war cant do everything like you can THATS WHY make a war if you want war dps then. I have gotten used to not doing mage dps as a ele shammy so should ret pallys get used to not doing war dps.
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12/10/2010 12:55 PMPosted by Najia
12/10/2010 12:48 PMPosted by Chillbill
[quote="14063060952"]why are you using a leather helm >.>

Its blizzard fault his deeps is low, clearly.


Yep, a Plate helmet would increase his DPS by over 9000, amirite?[/quote]
You expect a paladin that cant gear themselves to be able to pull of a rotation properly?
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85 Human Paladin
3975
quote="14063058205"]Just a simple list, you know since we have been saying this for how long? First I would like to say thank you for at least fixing the mastery where it was requiring at least one HP to work, doesnt fix ret, but it helped make it more bearable.

These are not ideas to fix anything, just a list of problems (incoming long post)



- Mastery is a terrible stat for ret, it conflicts with our 31 point talent[/quote]

A lot of our abilities conflict with our 31 pt talent. However, our 31 pt talent is useful for more than just damage. It is like Repentance before it in that it is absolutely amazing for pvp and potentially less amazing in pve. If you use your role as an offhealer well you can potentially spam word of glory with holy radiance and give your healer a chance to recover his mana.

- To follow Having so much RNG proc off of white swings...its just bad for the ret class, especially in pvp, a 2h (slow swing speed) melee class with not a lot of target uptime. I understand you want haste to be important for ret, but the thing is, the class has so much ramp up time to begin with, adding in the mastery and AoW RNG makes it very hard to be reliable and good dps pressure.


Agreed.

- Rotations with the RNG, we also understand you want the spec to have a higher skill cap, less faceroll. However, with inquisition, zealotry, mastery, AoW, Aveng W, Divine purpose, hammer...along with our normal attacks judge/crusader strike/wrath. Im going to say that maybe you gave ret paladins in a dps rotation too much RNG, but also maybe too many dps cooldowns and things to watch for? Things need to be involving and challenging yet fun, I think you may have taken it a bit too far.


I think it's fine to have a hugely challenging class that is fairly easy to do good dps on but takes time to master.

You said RNG already but emphasizing that we have so much of it is always a good thing.

- Dispels kill the class and rets the most, one button can take away our 31 point talent, our 81 ability, and our useful utility spells with one button. Something needs to be done with dispels in pvp, or the class needs to be re-evaluated in facing dispels. One spell should not make a class/spec nearly useless.


They have made dispelling cost a lot of mana. You have a LOT of garbage buffs to use including several that don't use mana at all. If they are dispelling you, they are using their mana and not ccing or doing dps. Spam your garbage spells.

Righteous Fury (magic)
Blessing of Salvation (magic)
Divine Plea (magic)
Blessing of Might/Kings (magic)
Holy Radiance? (magic)

Use many of these before you use your real spells and they won't be able to dispel you.

Don't blame blizzard because you aren't using the tools you have.
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85 Human Paladin
3975
- Direction of ret in pvp, Lets break down what a ret paladin is. A 2 handed melee DPS, A ret specializes into dealing damage just like any other melee dps. A ret can heal, but its weak and mana expensive, healing becomes a defensive utility for himself or others.

What does a ret offer over other dps? damage pressure is very low unless the stars align and RNG is amazing. Other then that its not reliable. Utility of a paladin is not what it used to be, other classes have gotten amazing spells and abilities since vanilla. Hands are dispellable, ret heals are laughable and drops mana way to fast (But you wouldnt bring a ret to heal, its a dps spec, however its own heals act as a defensive utility and still are hurting), Rets reliable dps cooldowns are all dispellable.

it comes down to a simple question, why bring a Ret paladin over an arms warrior, feral druid, rogue, DK...etc etc. The utility does not come close to making up for the lack of dps pressure, its unreliable at best. And other classes utilites are becoming more and more amazing every expansion. Smoke bomb? Heroic leap? Those have amazing pvp potential for group usage.

Fact is in rets current state it will not be brought over any other melee dps, Paladins will find roles as Holy. Which is infuriating because I dont mind healing, but I did not roll a paladin to heal. I enjoy having it to throw out some utility or emergency heals every now and then, but I did not sign on to be pigeon holed into healing. We have been forced into healing to be competitive since vanilla. Ret has never been limited in competitive pvp by skill cap, it has been a class cap.

I say since vanilla...and its true. In competitive team/pvp paladins have always had to go holy or be left out. Ret finally got a foot hole in pve in wrath, but in pvp the only place ret was good was in duels and against bad player and/or in bad gear. Prot finally got a place as a tanking spec, even in wrath when ret was not very good in team play people migrated to prot for better results...

I really thought they were going to get it right with this new system, and I like it...its just not all there, which leads me to ask...

Why, with all the months before the release of cataclysm, before 85 on live, before when people in beta were voicing opinions and on the test realm...Why haven't the big Paladin (ret) issues been addressed?

If ret is just never going to be a viable pvp dps tree...then something needs to be said, I think the community is sick of being gimped compared to the other melee dps.

ret paladins are not asking to be OP, ret paladins just want to be as viable in a dps spot on teams as a warrior or DK, etc...


Ret paladins are viable in pvp. Like I said earlier, use your garbage buffs to stop dispels. Word of Glory spam with Zealotry is almost always more effective in pvp than TV spam. Ret isn't meant to be another rogue - we're meant to be an offhealer dps. This is widely different from any class currently in the game. None of them do it as well as us. We can made it easier for our teammates to line up spells by giving them Hands and making ourselves more attractive targets.

If they're using their time dispelling us, then they're not doing anything to our allies. If we're putting garbage buffs up and they keep dispelling, what are our allies doing? Where did their mana go?

In arenas, ret DEFINITELY needs some way to be on their target more than they currently can be. Cleanse and Long Arm may help but I'm not quite sure yet if they'll be enough.

Regardless, give yourself a bit longer than a few days without even being in arenas or rated bgs or even with resilience to test these things out.

-Previously Rank #1 3v3/5v5 Ret Paladin Vindication BG
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12/10/2010 1:00 PMPosted by Heratli
out some utility or emergency heals every now and then

Thats half the problem. If you can throw out heals then how would it be fair to the warrior if you did the same damage?
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85 Human Paladin
3975
I definitely didn't post that.

It would be fair to the warrior if he could interrupt the heals or if it cost us damage to do those heals.

Which they can and it does.
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12/10/2010 1:07 PMPosted by Heratli
I definitely didn't post that.

It would be fair to the warrior if he could interrupt the heals or if it cost us damage to do those heals.

Which they can and it does.

Cant pallies rupt too?
And it was in your quotebox but the forums fail.
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<blockquote data-quote="14059966661" class="quote-public"><div><span class="bml-quote-date">12/10/2010 1:07 PM</span>Posted by <a href="1406722899?page=1#17">Heratli</a></div>I definitely didn't post that.
<br/>
<br/>It would be fair to the warrior if he could interrupt the heals or if it cost us damage to do those heals.
<br/>
<br/>Which they can and it does.</blockquote>
<br/>Cant pallies rupt too?
<br/>And it was in your quotebox but the forums fail.
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85 Human Paladin
3975
Yes but what good does my interrupt do against a warrior?

I'm not sure what you're arguing, I did think it was a Paladin vs warrior utility in PvP discussion but maybe not?
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