Changes to Ret - A Pally asking for a Nerf!?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
11110
So, Ret Pallies don't seem all that fun to me.

The shame is that it seems like Blizz has an AWESOME and very fun dps class set up in Ret Pallies, but the numbers are just messing us up (of course this is just my opinion).

I loved Ret when the patch 4.0 first hit. Everything was about getting holy power to use this gigantic new nuke: Templar's Verdict. Every other ability we had was basically only there for the chance of getting the Holy Power to charge your next TV up. Haste was amazing for us because:

1) it reduced the cooldown of Crusader Strike (our biggest Holy Power generator)
2) helped our Art of War procs - giving a 40% chance of a holy power and helping to fill out a rotation that would otherwise have holes in it
3) worked in tandem with our Mastery to give a free TV and another 40% shot at generating another holy power and fill even more holes
4) sped up our Seal of Truth DoTs (more trivial to how the class PLAYS, but still a notable source of DPS)

When Cata dropped I was expecting to have a new buff to manage (Inquisition) and another cooldown to play with (Gaurdian of the Ancient Kings) and that's it...

What ended up happening though was Templar's Verdict was rivaled on the damage sheets by Art of War Exorcisms as our 'biggest nuke.' I couldn't tell if they nerfed Templar's Verdict at all in the process - I wasn't following the changes that carefully and I may have missed it, but I don't think it has been nerfed - it certainly feels as if it has though. They certainly buffed Exorcism though. It's still going to be only around 10-12% of a Ret's damage while Templar's Verdict will probably be at about 18-20% in most fights, but simply the fact that its damage is the same as a fully charged TV takes some of the fun out of the class in my opinion. There's something very... pleasing? about storing up that holy power to release a killer blow. Having a proc off a weapon swing that hits as hard cheapens it for me. Plus, it messes with the priority system - Exorcism is now significant damage by itself regardless of it's chance for holy power.

Blizz, if you're listening, please; for my sake, nerf exorcism into the ground. Put it down on the charts next to Holy Wrath where it belongs! If you want to make it an important part of Ret, then change the 100% damage buff from Art of War to a 100% chance to generate Holy power, and make my Templar's Verdicts sacred again!

Exorcism down to 5-7% and Templar's Verdict back up to 25-30% of our damage table would be lovely! thanks :)
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85 Human Paladin
6075
TV need a big buff ~ 25%
Exo is fine
Art of War needs to be ~80%
Inq was a stupid idea.

If blizz does this we might be back on par with the dmg by Boomers and Mages and DKs
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87 Undead Death Knight
5520
Maybe convert Templar's Verdict to holy damage so it benefits from inquisition? idk i too liked it when TV hit like a truck, now it just feels watered down...and if they wanted to make exo a main part of ret dps, why make the proc rate so low? It does amazing damage when (or i should say if) it actually goes off....ugh ret is way too proc based now
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I honestly think they should just combine Inquisition and Templar's Verdict into a single or 2 point talent in the Ret tree.

Edit- Clarifying I do not mean to say remove both skills and replace it with one, more or less just combine the effects into Templar's Verdict.
Edited by Illidria on 12/10/2010 12:39 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
12/10/2010 12:26 AMPosted by Seska

nerfing exorcism would prolly make inquisition totally non-viable. ever thought of that?


Inquistion is only viable on static boss fights as it is. It's a hell of a lot of work for a tiny dps increase even in the best case scenario. Let it die.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11110
12/10/2010 12:26 AMPosted by Seska
nerfing exorcism would prolly make inquisition totally non-viable. ever thought of that?


I don't think it'd make inquisition non-viable. Especially if they put Censure (I actually can't remember if it's Censure or Seal of Truth Damage - I always get them confused....) back to where it was AND keeping in mind Hammer of Wrath counts as Holy Damage, Inquisition is something you're still going to want up.

I did like the suggestions about making Inquisition affect Templar's Verdict though... Maybe adjust the TV glyph so that rather than the static 15% it gains 30% while under the affects of Inquisition?

I also liked the idea of tying Inquisition to TV:

12/10/2010 12:38 AMPosted by Illidria
I honestly think they should just combine Inquisition and Templar's Verdict into a single or 2 point talent in the Ret tree.

Edit- Clarifying I do not mean to say remove both skills and replace it with one, more or less just combine the effects into Templar's Verdict.


Keeping the duration at 12 secs for ret but allowing our TV's to refresh it to it's full duration seems very reasonable (they do the same with Assassination rogues pretty much).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11110
12/10/2010 12:54 AMPosted by Seska
i agree. i just hate the ability. blizzard really sucked at giving us some cool new stuff. a pet, woot for originality? , a aoe renew, yippy-doo-yay? and an ability thats barely even viable for one of the 3 specs? 0/10, blizz.


I actually think the changes to Pallies in Cata are AMAZING in theory. I love having more survivability (in Raid & PvP), adding the AoE heal to our arsenal of Hand of Protection, Divine Protection, Selfless Healer (+50%) Word of Glories, and the ever beloved Hand of Sacrifice + Bubble combo. In raid we should be a healer's & tank's best friend, and while using them can cut our damage a bit, I'd take beating an encounter to winning the damage race any day.

I like the IDEA of Inquisition too. It just needs to be better. Either they buff the damage, the duration, or they bump up our Holy damage (just not Exorcism :-P). Similarly I think Guardian is an AMAZING cooldown to add! I'm very much looking forward to hitting 85 so I can try it out! 1% stacking strength sounds hard to be bad though...
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13855
12/10/2010 12:26 AMPosted by Seska
12/09/2010 11:24 PMPosted by Pantherra
So, Ret Pallies don't seem all that fun to me.

The shame is that it seems like Blizz has an AWESOME and very fun dps class set up in Ret Pallies, but the numbers are just messing us up (of course this is just my opinion).

I loved Ret when the patch 4.0 first hit. Everything was about getting holy power to use this gigantic new nuke: Templar's Verdict. Every other ability we had was basically only there for the chance of getting the Holy Power to charge your next TV up. Haste was amazing for us because:

1) it reduced the cooldown of Crusader Strike (our biggest Holy Power generator)
2) helped our Art of War procs - giving a 40% chance of a holy power and helping to fill out a rotation that would otherwise have holes in it
3) worked in tandem with our Mastery to give a free TV and another 40% shot at generating another holy power and fill even more holes
4) sped up our Seal of Truth DoTs (more trivial to how the class PLAYS, but still a notable source of DPS)

When Cata dropped I was expecting to have a new buff to manage (Inquisition) and another cooldown to play with (Gaurdian of the Ancient Kings) and that's it...

What ended up happening though was Templar's Verdict was rivaled on the damage sheets by Art of War Exorcisms as our 'biggest nuke.' I couldn't tell if they nerfed Templar's Verdict at all in the process - I wasn't following the changes that carefully and I may have missed it, but I don't think it has been nerfed - it certainly feels as if it has though. They certainly buffed Exorcism though. It's still going to be only around 10-12% of a Ret's damage while Templar's Verdict will probably be at about 18-20% in most fights, but simply the fact that its damage is the same as a fully charged TV takes some of the fun out of the class in my opinion. There's something very... pleasing? about storing up that holy power to release a killer blow. Having a proc off a weapon swing that hits as hard cheapens it for me. Plus, it messes with the priority system - Exorcism is now significant damage by itself regardless of it's chance for holy power.

Blizz, if you're listening, please; for my sake, nerf exorcism into the ground. Put it down on the charts next to Holy Wrath where it belongs! If you want to make it an important part of Ret, then change the 100% damage buff from Art of War to a 100% chance to generate Holy power, and make my Templar's Verdicts sacred again!

Exorcism down to 5-7% and Templar's Verdict back up to 25-30% of our damage table would be lovely! thanks :)


nerfing exorcism would prolly make inquisition totally non-viable. ever thought of that?


And that will be bad because?

The OP is 90% correct. exo should not hit harder than our finisher. But it should hit hard enough that you want to press it, but not so hard that you have to press it immediately.

TBH I would also quite like to see it move to proccing off CS with an increased chance and lower damage as that way it slots in with GCDs more smoothly.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11110
12/10/2010 11:56 AMPosted by Zamm
The OP is 90% correct. exo should not hit harder than our finisher. But it should hit hard enough that you want to press it, but not so hard that you have to press it immediately.

TBH I would also quite like to see it move to proccing off CS with an increased chance and lower damage as that way it slots in with GCDs more smoothly.


I agree that Exorcism and the Art of War should definitely remain a part of the Ret Pally class, and that you should WANT to push it. I just think that they should move the motivation for pushing it away from its damage. That's why I recommended they tune down the exorcism damage, but give it a 100% change to grant holy power. There could be other motivations to push it as well though - an extra 20% to crit on your next Templar's Verdict maybe?
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