Triage Healing: Getting over "green bars"

85 Draenei Paladin
4305
12/14/2010 3:12 PMPosted by Bobmuffins
My only problem with this new healing method- if 50% is fine, why not 55%? Or 65%? Or 90%? Or even full? If we're supposed to float everyone at about 50%, why not just half everyone's health pool?

healing is a lot like pvp

you have to think on your feet and adapt to the situation

when he says "50%" he means ~50%, or *about*. give or take. 40 - 60 is usually where you'll end up at. but, if the situation calls for it may be more. ex; boss is about to do a big spike ability.

the point isn't the numbers, its *prioritizing*. if a dps is at around ~50% health, *he is not a priority yet*. the tank is your #1 priority. you are #2. dps are the last, no matter what. some dps may be above others, (for example, a dps kiting a mob or whatever), but its still generally the same.
Reply Quote
85 Human Priest
3835
This is a high rated post huh....

I feel sorry for the future of this game already. You think 30 minute queues are bad now, stick around awhile.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
14385
the point isn't the numbers, its *prioritizing*. if a dps is at around ~50% health, *he is not a priority yet*. the tank is your #1 priority. you are #2. dps are the last, no matter what. some dps may be above others, (for example, a dps kiting a mob or whatever), but its still generally the same.


But the issues becomes if you don't have the time or power to push people up past that 40-60% mark then you're already fighting a losing battle and it becomes how long can we go until dmg outdoes healing rather than until healer ooms.
Reply Quote
80 Night Elf Druid
2185
I agree with the OP on everything that was mentioned but ill throw in this same model will not work for PVP. This is been my main concern over this more than any other. There is no way to balance it out for PVP heals. The cost are insanely too high and the over healing is so low there isnt really a way to keep someone from dieing to a burst. Resilence wont change the bad mechanics that are in place now.

Too me the whole model wasnt thought out enough, if at all. Its like they just came up with an idea and threw it hook line and sinker down everyone's throats. They had plenty of data to go off of and they did next to nothing to change it so far. Honestly, the dungeon fights are a controled environment...once everyone gets the strats down and relative gear for the instance they will be fine. PVP doesnt have any of those elements and is very random. There is no way u can heal using just long effiencent nuke heals for PVP. Regardless of the HP pools and resilence a good team will destroy a healer right now in arenas and BGs. I will venture to guess at the end of the season there will be hardely any healers in top seeded teams unless something is changed. Time will tell though....jsut not holding my breathe for it to happen
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Paladin
4305
12/21/2010 1:26 PMPosted by Foutre
the point isn't the numbers, its *prioritizing*. if a dps is at around ~50% health, *he is not a priority yet*. the tank is your #1 priority. you are #2. dps are the last, no matter what. some dps may be above others, (for example, a dps kiting a mob or whatever), but its still generally the same.


But the issues becomes if you don't have the time or power to push people up past that 40-60% mark then you're already fighting a losing battle and it becomes how long can we go until dmg outdoes healing rather than until healer ooms.

if the fight calls for you to push people up past that mark (say theres a lot of splash dmg going around) you pop cooldowns. you have to manage your cooldowns. its just like playing a dps caster, in reverse. thats your "burn phase". in the "normal" phase you should be able to keep people up and recover mana with your "cheap" heal/mana regen abilities.

point being.. most of the time you won't need to keep them above that 40-60 "buffer zone", if they are *playing correctly* by staying out of fire, avoiding cleaves, etc.

thats not to say you shouldn't top them off when its convenient (ex; tank is doing well, 80 - 90 +, free spell proc, or use the cheap heal on them).
Edited by Darenyon on 12/21/2010 1:37 PM PST
Reply Quote
80 Draenei Shaman
12840
I am completely fine with the new model except for this: right now we can't heal anyone back up efficiently. Since the big heal hits for 10% of a tank's health it can take multiple casts of this long, slow, mana intensive heal to get a tank back into a 'safe' zone nevermind the mana efficient heal.

I'm not even going to touch PvP and the mess the new system has created there.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Paladin
4305
12/21/2010 1:41 PMPosted by Zyblue
I am completely fine with the new model except for this: right now we can't heal anyone back up efficiently. Since the big heal hits for 10% of a tank's health it can take multiple casts of this long, slow, mana intensive heal to get a tank back into a 'safe' zone nevermind the mana efficient heal.

I'm not even going to touch PvP and the mess the new system has created there.

after a spike i use instants + flash heal to get him to a reasonable level (i consider that ~40%) then use the big one, seems to get the job done. thats just for paladins though, i've never played a resto shaman

edit: better yet, if you have the mods for it, time your cast just before the spike goes off so that way the big heal hits him instantly after.
Edited by Darenyon on 12/21/2010 1:54 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Priest
4820
I agree with the OP, then again I fall into the category of people who enjoy the new style of healing. I think if it were much less strenuous to keep people at full all the time the importance of self survival would drop again and I think this dawn of awareness is far more rewarding even if the learning curve is a bit steep.

In my experience healing heroics so far, people don't die to 1 or 2 ticks for AoE as they run out while mid life. When they do die it's from a one-shot based on not paying full attention to boss mechanics. I've gotten apologies from other people from dying, imagine that!

I will toss renews, the occasional holy word or procced flash heal to DPS if I'm busy with tank healing. Lightwell likes to take care of the rest. Anyway, I think it's important to keep in mind that all fights are different and that having a keen understanding of the damage being done and when it is and isn't safe to let people linger at low life is good for all healers to understand.

It's a good post and good basis to go by. Just use your head and let the rest of your party do so too. Your success is based on how well the team does, not how well you can carry them all (not until you severely outgear what you're running at least).
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
11740
My opinion: I came from a game where I was hardcore into pvp healing (guild wars) and it was very much so like this new system, so I am very excited. This is what I felt was lacking from healers from the beginning. Harder is better imo, it can be stressful but why play to mash a couple buttons mindlessly? It's not perfect but it's closer to good than it was before...

In my old game, healing via 'triage' was taken a bounding leap even farther forward than Blizzard is currently aiming for, which is why I am maybe adapting easier than most people (even on a priest, which most people think have had the hardest time so far). Instead of simply balancing 5-10 bars, slowly keeping them all at a stable baseline percentage, you actually had to watch the field like a hawk and determine ahead of time what type of incoming damage would hit, on whom, and for how much, and protect them from that damage pre-emptively.

In my old game I played a 'protection prayers' monk, where my job was literally to cast spells on people before damage occurred. For example, I could cast something called 'Guardian' that would cause anyone physically attacking my target to have a 50% chance to miss. I would cast this spell if I saw a melee class chasing down one of my party members on the field, so that they would be protected from the incoming damage. There was also 'Spell Breaker', which would completely nullify any magical damage against the target, but it had a high mana cost and cooldown, so you had to use it very sparingly. I literally had to watch the enemy's casters to see where they were facing. If all of them turned to face the same party member, I would estimate who on our team they were trying to spike down, and cast the spell on them. All while avoiding standing in fire, kiting an assassin or warrior biting my ankles, and line of sighting them, etc etc.

The point is, it's not about it being 50% or 40% or whatever. The point the OP is making is just that your 'goal' is not to keep health bars at 100%. Your goal is to keep them in that 'Red Zone' he described, where they will be able to take another incoming hit without dying. This means you need to have an idea of what kind of damage can be expected in different scenarios and react accordingly, whatever the scenario. A familiar extreme case of this would be the first boss of Shadowfang Keep - you have to know to limit your healing, only spot healing & dispelling until the end so that you have the mana to blow all of your burst healing in the last phase. No need to aim for a magic number of 50%, but you definitely need to strategize and know what you're dealing with (i approve!)

I remember playing Final Fantasy on super nintendo (and just about every other console), where you had turn-based play. To be any good at it you had to just 'get a feel' for approximately how much damage would be incoming within the span of your 'turn' to play. Within 'your turn' you would keep your characters JUST healthy enough that they would be able to receive that predicted incoming damage, and not die. Because that's all you would need to do to make it to your NEXT turn where you could heal up 'just enough' again, and survive to do more damage and get the kill.

Overall this is a great post and I am impressed by the articulate writing so rare to find amongst the trolling here. But OP, I kind of wish you hadn't set an actual percentage because all these boys and girls can't seem to unbunch their panties and see past the numbers.

Oh and P.S.
EVERYONE who is crying about things to the effect of 'it is just unhealable damage' or 'WTF OP is wrong, my tank gets two-shot' you either have
a) a group of other people who are NOT doing their job of CC'ing or focus firing or kiting
b) not enough gear or bad itemization/setup
c) bad class balance (like disc priests just sucked, and some tanks are taking more dmg than others, especially if they dont know how to use their cooldowns or self-healing abilities)

TY :)

Reply Quote
80 Night Elf Druid
2185
@ daemon,
This model is nowhere remotely close to Guild wars, And neither can it support something like guild wars. Im sure what u said may be true for PVE 5 mans but it is no where close to being usable in BGs or rated arenas.

case in point plz show a vid of u in 3's arena healing through a train on you or your parnters and keep them or yourself alive. Specifically Priests in general are so easily taken down now its not even remotely funny. Again, i coud be wrong but the vid should prove me otherwise :)
Edited by Oakthorne on 12/21/2010 3:56 PM PST
Reply Quote
80 Draenei Shaman
12840
12/21/2010 1:48 PMPosted by Darenyon
after a spike i use instants + flash heal to get him to a reasonable level (i consider that ~40%) then use the big one, seems to get the job done. thats just for paladins though, i've never played a resto shaman

edit: better yet, if you have the mods for it, time your cast just before the spike goes off so that way the big heal hits him instantly after.


Note the use of "can" in my original statement. I was pointing out general numbers, not specific situations.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Paladin
4305
12/21/2010 3:53 PMPosted by Oakthorne
@ daemon,
This model is nowhere remotely close to Guild wars, And neither can it support something like guild wars. Im sure what u said may be true for PVE 5 mans but it is no where close to being usable in BGs or rated arenas.

um, thats exactly how pvp healing has always worked. theres no way you're going to keep everyone up at 100% like you (could) do in dungeons (and what i suspect a lot of people are still trying to do)
Reply Quote
Excellent post... just wanted to thank you for taking the time to put it together.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
12105
TL;DR version?
Reply Quote
93 Draenei Shaman
7090
12/12/2010 6:10 AMPosted by Llamashama
The instance was hard, but we went slow. There wasn't much we could do for CC, no priest or hunter, but we pulled things slowly, the DPS didn't grab aggro, people interrupted things and everyone stayed out of the fire. It was brutal, grueling, and glorious.


Isn't it just fantastic when this happens? Your group jelled and worked together to claw your way through that dungeon. There is NOTHING more satisfying in this game than EARNING your victory through dedication and team work. NOTHING.

I did my first Heroic Grim Batol run the other day and the first group I landed with wiped consistently on the first boss. They could not get past him, period. They all dropped group and I queued up again. 2nd group I landed with got to the first boss and we died twice. Third time - we nailed it and down he went - very satisfying. Those awful trash packs suddenly weren't so hard anymore.

2nd boss got pulled accidentally and we wiped. 3rd and 4th time we wiped; it was our 5th attempt where everything jelled and we nailed the victory. I was on my toes the ENTIRE time - popping every damn spell in my book, using every tool, every trick, everything I could possibly do. It was EXHILARATING.

The trash was even easier after that boss. That awful, awful Grim Batol trash - we walked straight through it after those bosses!

Then 3rd boss. This guy mopped the floor with us the first 3 times, I mean, no contest. I was starting to feel frustrated and wiped out, but our 4th attempt just went like clockwork - adds were killed right away, kited and no one ever got hit by explosion. No one was hit by breath attack, everyone stayed out of the fire - we hit what I like to call the 'sweet spot.' It's that awesome, awesome few minutes in this game that are rarely attained when you and your team are just working like a well-oiled machine and you can FEEL your victory approaching. That is a wonderful feeling and I hope everyone has experienced that at least once in this game.

3rd boss down - the trash? It was a relief to hit the trash after that. The trash was taking a break. Whew... trash? Thank jebus!

Final boss - only took 2 tries. (That guy's a pushover anyway.)

If this is the new healing model, I wholeheartedly welcome it. If this is the way bosses and encounters are going to be from now on, I hope it never goes away because gaming this satisfying is very hard to find. What an awesome, awesome run and THE most fun I've had in WoW in a very very long time.

You guys wanna go back to the old heroics where the most challenging thing was not falling asleep? BOOORINNNG. Blizz is right - making choices and being rewarded for making the right choice is fantastic. Yes, it is awful when your group is making the wrong choice, and you pay for that too; for the most part, though - I wish every group experience I had in game was like that Grim Batol run. Everyone doing whatever they could to help out the team and pull out the win.

Fantastic.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
9605
Excellent post. As for the healing style, I am adapting but, I am still on the fence as to whether or not I actually enjoy triage as a healing style. I will be the first to admit I truly did not enjoy the twitchfest that WotLK became towards the end. That said I think that Blizz may have swung the pendulum a little too far in the other direction. The reasons for this are as follows:

-At least at this time there is really little room for error on anyone's part before the OOM meter kicks in and there is little to do but wipe.

- Part of it is simply psychological. It "feels" as if I am simply treading water ( a repeated motion that only forstalls the inevitable of tiring and drowning) and I really cannot swim and actually do something proactive. I am stuck with simple survival. I know that is what it is all about to a certain degree but, "triage" simply amplifies this feeling.

- Other roles are having simply as difficult time adjusting as healers are and that just piles on the strees factor the difference is that thier ability to do what they do was not curtailed nearly as harshly. I am not normally one to worry about what the other guy does or does not have but, it still stings a little.

I really do not want godmode healing just a little extra wiggle room. Maybe gear and time will provide this wiggle room maybe our heals will still continue to scale poorly with player health as health pools rise more and more. In T11 will my heal still only hit for X percentage of a tank's health like it does now? I don't know.

Thanks again for the excellent post OP, time will also tell which side of the fence I fall.
Reply Quote
82 Human Priest
2665
12/11/2010 9:08 PMPosted by Hotladee
The reason the new system sounded appealing was that this spike damage would no longer occur but it does



thats exactly what ive been feeling.. if there was no bursty damage and everyone took slow burn damage then sure the mana resource system would be fine. but even in regular 5 mans in cata every one still seems to take chaotic rapid bursty damage and goes from full health to 5% in 2 or 3 rapid hits.. the tank and one or even 2 dps are all dropping like stones at the same time and while draining my mana to get everyone stabalized i get the added bonus of peeking at recount to choose which of the dps to let die if it comes to that as mana goes from 80% to 60% to 35% to 19/50000 and every spell is blacked out.

im sure once the mechanics and strats are worked out to the point they were in wrath, and gear is aquired we'll be mowing through barely using a heal, but i guess it doesnt feel like spike damage isnt happening.. it feels like it happens all the time, but my spells and as a disc priest - definitely my bubbles- are way less effective than they used to be
Reply Quote
1 Human Warrior
0
1) Is anyone below 50? Yes: Step 2, No: Step 5
2) Is one of them the Tank? Yes: Step 3, No: Step 4
3) Heal the Tank back to 50%, make sure they're stable before moving on to Step 4
4) Locate the party member with the lowest health, heal them, back to Step 1
5) No one is below 50%, good. Is your mana comfortable? (somewhat subjective, but I would say above 60%) Yes: Step 6, No: Step 10
6) Top the Tank off, then move on to Step 7
7) How's your mana looking now? Comfortable: Step 8, Uncomfortable: Step 10
8) Check Step 1 again, if Yes, follow the procedure. If No then continue with Step 9
9) Begin to top off other members. You can prioritize by various factors, including "most useful DPS", "highest DPS", "myself", this is less important and can differ from group to group. After you're done with this Check Step 1 again, if your answer is No then go to Step 10
10) Do you have any mana CDs available to pop or other methods to gain mana? Use them.


You missed the step where the elemental shaman puts on his water shield, drops a mana spring totem, and starts spamming healing surge like a pro while the poor [insert healer] is oom. Hopefully, elemental shaman are as overpowered at lvl 85 as he is at lvl 82.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]