Heroics and your thoughts-

85 Worgen Warrior
3215
...and curiosity for my own progression. :P

-General Reader Population:
Heroics... don't seem to be all that hard. I guess it's hardest on healers and tanks than anyone, so I don't have much room to talk about it, but the PUGs I've been in make it seem much harder than it is. Not to mention their impatience. These things, you have to approach as actual boss encounters sometimes, and not just "grab 'n go" encounters. I'm happy that they're not easy, and that trash isn't just AoE everything -> win (in fact, I fell asleep all throughout the old instances where people did that, when I was healing on Hakawne... it was so boring).

For the first time, I had fun. Last night. Somehow. I mean, it was with Zandara, so I have NO idea how it was fun, but nonetheless, we went through the instance, learned mechanics (if you jump just before Crystalspawn Giants finish casting Quake in Stonecore, you take no AoE damage). The other groups? Tank says, "OH GOD YOU WIPED US ON THE FIRST GROUP -disband-" ...orrr the tank just sucked and didn't bother with CC and aggro management.

What've your experiences been so far?

-Re: Warriors:
Someone told me to leave a Heroic Grim Batol because my gear sucks. They couldn't boot me, so I stayed. Everyone but one person left out of spite, we requeued to complete the dungeon, beat a bunch of bosses, then the guy who initially didn't leave was falling asleep at the keyboard. So he did after all. Then the replacement from queue screwed it up all to hell, we wiped a lot, then everyone disbanded in impatience. (What the hell's with impatience these days anyway?)

Maybe some warriors, or people with warrior knowledge can give me advice: This same group that told me to leave also accused me of putting my weapons in the wrong place. Are my weapons in the wrong place? I don't believe they are, since I believe the weapon speed trumps weapon damage at this point (DPS lowered from rage gen drop), assuming there's no HUGE significant difference in damage. Although, I don't recall the weapon speed contribution to damage dealt.

Granted, my gear really kinda' does suck, except that the 2pc from ICC seems to keep my stats and damage higher than if I were to replace it with a bunch of quest blues. I seem to hold my own in instances (seem to). I've been above others on the total functional output and successfully completed instances (for PUGs, anyway - I'd have to ask guildies for approval in their runs).

-Hakawne
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90 Human Priest
15630
12/13/2010 12:10 PMPosted by Roshote
I had fun... with Zandara,



I think you need to lay off the drugs, son.
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100 Night Elf Druid
7105
IMO WotLK spoiled many players. Newcomers didn't learn while veterans went dull and lazy. People got used to steamrolling and forgot how to play their class. Now suddenly, when they can't just zerg a 5-man, those people rush to critique the other guy's gear or post meters proving their worth; you know, because being the "most" at anything is being the best at everything.

Also, bring back the Jand. xD
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85 Orc Warrior
8045
I haven't really been doing that many instances, let alone heroics. The few experiences I've had with normal dungeons, I haven't seen that level of impatience or bad play. That's probably going to be different on heroics, I'd imagine.

With rage being less of a plentiful resource, I would tend to agree with you with having the faster weapon in the OH to help generate some rage. However, I think that really only coming into play much later gear-wise since rage generation at this point is dependent a lot more on hit and expertise. I don't know what those people were talking about, but if they think that the reason you guys wiped was due to which weapon you had in your MH and OH, then they're idiots.

EJ suggests you should try and get 8% hit > 26 exp > 27% hit > crit = haste = mastery. I think though that this is more geared to raids where a fight lasts a lot longer than in heroics/dungeons/questing. I found that trying to get that much expertise and therefore allowing my hit rating to suffer, really annoyed me. I slowly started to reforge in favor of hit rating and found it to be a much better experience for me since stuff was still dying pretty fast and with victory rush, I can just keep going.

As far as ICC gear goes, even if you break the set bonus for equivalent or lesser DPS stat items, I'd still suggest you swap to those 85 quest blues that will have a ton more stamina and armor since the longer you survive, the more DPS you can put out.

My TLDR conclusions:
- I don't think weapon speed is a major factor this early.
- Find more quest/dungeon gear that you can reforge to at least 15% to hit and 15-20ish exp.
- profit.
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85 Worgen Warrior
3215
Re: Warrior stuff, I ran my own calculations because I didn't feel like studying. Kwanza made me realize one of my stupidest mistakes, after I finally figured out what did and did not happen after Blizzard said stuff. So I did have my weapons in the wrong spots. The end. (I still held up in my heroics, though. 8D)

@Pibe: Read your post just after I posted mine (cuz I was typing while you posted).
Over 10 minutes with a 100% hit rate, I discovered a pretty much null difference in rage generation based on calculations. So yeh, base weapon speed only has to do with rage per swing and rage not gained from a swing not completed, instead of rage over a duration. It's essentially always gonna be 9.75 rage per second (counting both weapons). Now I know. I guess I just had to do the math for myself in the end, regardless of what people said.

Part of my issue was that Blizzard originally said the OH rage generation would be half that of the main hand's. Either I interpreted wrong, or something changed, because the calculation is actually OH generates half of the rage that it would if the OH were in the main hand.

Calc:
MH: 6.5 * base swing
OH: 3.25 * base swing
Hence... 9.75rps no matter what the base swing is.

My original thinking was... OH Rage: (6.5*baseMH)/2
Which would've put a more interesting twist, but I guess the current way is simpler.

-
Re: Heroic stuff, that seems to be the consensus. The players who started in Wrath don't know how it was, and got used to the simplicity without knowing the difficulty there used to be. Then again, some old players liked it in Wrath more. Lazy. >:I

I like having to CC again. Then again, that also means I'll end up tabbing out a lot again. I'm sure anyone from Wicked knows what a pain in the ass I was when raiding MC, trying to get ready checks and whatever. "Hakawne, tab back in." Sorry, Ariokh. :X I still hear your voice in my head.

Edit:
I edit SOOO MUCH!
Edited by Roshote on 12/13/2010 3:34 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
Hak.... sweet heart..... I'll talk to you in Real ID.
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87 Tauren Warrior
8980
Hard? I wouldn't say so.

All it really is is that healers can't heal through stupid, and fight's actually require some thought and can't be 100% face rolled.

Over all, I love it. Definitely having to retrain myself on some things though.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13860
First: Hak did you get your t-shirt "I survived Zandara" ?


Second: so far I'm loving healing these heroics. The balance seems just about perfect. Quite a blast.
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100 Night Elf Druid
13670
Really not trying to QQ

I'm torn. At times I can enjoy them, but I just haven't been able to fully experience heroics yet to make a complete decision. I'm in panic mode the entire time through the instance. That is, of course, because my only experience healing randoms is with those who are inept. The very, very few times I have gotten a group where CC is used and the dps do not stand in things and actually avoid damage, I can actually relax and just be aware. But generally I am panicking the entire time spamming and therefore failing.

I'm trying very hard to break my mentality from Wrath, and my habits, but it's messing with me. My mind is telling me that having dps around 75% health is automatically a priority as they could take spike damage and die. My AoE heals are not enough to top people off from 75% health (unless they take literally no damage), which is fine, it just conflicts with what I have been used to for 2 years. I'm so used to being able to just throw rejuvs on the dps and WG to top them off. Now, that takes a massive chunk of my mana, and barely heals them for 10%. Tanks take a fair amount of damage which compounds my panic state since I feel like if I turn away from them for a second to attend to a DPS we're fk'd.

I just haven't had enough exposure to heroics, I'm sure I'll eventually settle in, but Druid healing currently has me worried and I'm trying to find my own solutions.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11745
Hard? I wouldn't say so.

All it really is is that healers can't heal through stupid, and fight's actually require some thought and can't be 100% face rolled.

Over all, I love it. Definitely having to retrain myself on some things though.


I've got to agree with you. Current design with few exceptions is that if you cross the 329 ilvl requirement to queue heroics you will easily have enough mana/survival/dps to complete every heroic boss. That is IF you do the mechanics right to avoid unhealable (or simply one-shot) damage.

Learning heroics this past week I came up with a post-wipe checklist:
1) Did we stand in the fire/placed AoE
2) Did we eat a frontal cone or melee range AoE
3) What does that cast do, and can we interrupt/avoid it
4) Did we die to adds, and do the adds have some event (damage/heal/debuff) when they die
5) Is there some other major fight specific gimmick we ignored

So, do the mechanics correctly and gear is trivial in winning. I mostly run in-guild, but I did try out one random (queued as dps with a healer friend with me) and got Grim Batol. The first pug tank got to the second boss and every pull died because he didn't run away from encumbered (checklist #5) - I point it out after the 3rd wipe to the same cause and he nerd rages at me and quits. Next tank comes in and does the boss right, then on the follow-up trash breaks repent/polymorph/hex (yup, all 3 in use) with rends trying to "hold the pack" - and rage quits after he tries and fails to blame the dps for breaking CC. Get to the 3rd tank who clears trash just fine to the next boss, then on the boss two of the 3 dps ignore the fire elemental adds that chase/explode (checklist #4). Queue up 2 more wipes for same reason and group disbands.

TLDR; Heroics aren't that hard, but people got used to ignoring basic survival and boss gimmics, thus are impatient with current heroics
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85 Tauren Paladin
9560
You know Hak, I have only been in two heroics so far. Neither finished. But also, they were both pugs. I have yet to run one with people I know over vent. As a tank, I should be able to relate information and take the lead in these runs, but I have yet to gain the confidence that I know what I am doing to do that.

I enjoy the difficulty. I really do. But I have a hard time reading the strategies online and then going in and applying them to the bosses. I tend to forget the information I just read until I actually see it happen. So for me, trial by error is the more effective way of actually learning mechanics.

As it stands, I am running normal randoms to learn the basic fights so I at least have a jumping off point in heroics. I am not sure how long it will be before I try random heroics again, but it's something I really do look forward to.
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85 Undead Death Knight
8780
Run them with friends and ventrillo. Makes things a pushover.

That being said, we've run groups with 3 of us on vent and 2 puggers, or 2 of us and 3 puggers. They were also fine. It's a skill thing, not exactly a coordination or communication thing. *@%# players will do stupid things and hold the group back.

This is as it should be.
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85 Tauren Paladin
2750
On the flip side, I was in a heroic group where there were three guildies from another server queued up, myself, and another priest from a different server. We did H BRC, and I had quite a bit of difficulty with the third boss, since it took me a bit to understand what exactly to look out for and what to do right (I've only been actively tanking and healing for the past three weeks, only the past few days doing it as level 80-85). Problem was, the healer continually told me to NOT drop the stacks on the boss. Preferably, you should let them drop after 12-13. Doing it the way he described was for an achievement. Eventually after purposely dropping the stacks at 12 then burning through, taking down the adds, avoiding the fire pits, and starting the stacks up again, we did it.

I got this continual awkward feeling from the three guildies that I was "fail" but evidently good enough so that they could use me to push through to get their valor points because I was probably better than the next random tank fool. I dunno, maybe it's because we were going to skip Beauty because we "didn't have the CC" for it for her pups. A druid has hibernate. A warrior has Hamstring. A Death Knight has Chains of Ice. I have Hammer of Justice, which isn't fantastic, but it's something.

Still, we finished it, but I was still left with that foul taste in my mouth. Like the kind that you get when you wake up and it feels like you have something rancid growing back in there that you can only wash out with Listerine.

The point is: Go with friends, or you'll go through some stuff like this. It's not fun. And it's a nice alternative to telling a pug tank he's fail (Damnit, I'm getting better) and telling him to do it "their way" and skipping a boss which they could do but chose not to because they don't want to deal any longer than they have to.

HOWEVER. You'll have the cases of brilliance where you'll have three guildies that you're a part of, and another pair from another guild who are actually competent and know their stuff. This was how I was part of a successful heroic Halls of Origination run. All seven bosses. I watched some videos, explained the stuff, figured out how to implement what we could, DPS did their tricks. The only really, really hard boss was Setesh, and that was because I forgot about my own form of crowd control called "Holy Wrath" after three attempts to use on the adds I was kiting. Whoops.

As for my opinion, I love the new heroics, but some parts are a bit unforgiving. Thankfully, not in the "Lich King Defiled the tank" sort of unforgiving, but certain things can be a bit ouch. Ammunae's seed pods, I'm looking at you. Stupid healing and haste buff due to them rapidly spawning. **Babbles incoherently on something else eventually ending on the reasoning as to why his computer architecture class sucked.**
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
I enjoy the difficulty. I really do. But I have a hard time reading the strategies online and then going in and applying them to the bosses. I tend to forget the information I just read until I actually see it happen. So for me, trial by error is the more effective way of actually learning mechanics.


I hear you about the reading strats, what I've been doing to learn fights is watch the yogscast short guides. They explain the fights in usually under 10 minutes, and it works! Hell I watched the 7 minute video for Vanessa VanCleef, which is one of their longer ones and that certainly helped out, I would've been confused to hell if I hadn't.

Here is the Yogscast youtube channel: (I think it wasn't letting me make a reply because I had made a youtube link so here's his user) BlueXephos

Now I had written up a nice little response to Art, and then I got a 505 server error, so TL;DR, get your mindset out of the fact that you need to heal dps. Tank comes first along with yourself, and then dps last. Besides, it makes the dps' job more fun and they also usually become more aware of what is around them, I speak from experience. :)
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90 Draenei Shaman
13860
It's the first week of the expansion. Give things some time. (As opposed to the nerdrage QQing Bensam is doing in trade about how hard the heroics are.)

Remember that being an effective healer also involves knowing what to expect and when. On these new fights when you aren't sure what's coming, you tend to waste mana using faster heals when maybe you don't need to. Once you really understand all the encounters, healing becomes easier. Of course that's also because the tank and dps presumably understand things better too and help you do your job more effectively.

Lastly, by all that is right in the universe, don't pug unless you have to. Remember kids: Pugs are bad for you. DARE to say no to Pugs.
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85 Undead Death Knight
8780

Now I had written up a nice little response to Art, and then I got a 505 server error, so TL;DR, get your mindset out of the fact that you need to heal dps. Tank comes first along with yourself, and then dps last. Besides, it makes the dps' job more fun and they also usually become more aware of what is around them, I speak from experience. :)


I have a problem with this mindset. There are various heroic fights that deal massive AoE damage to everyone. If you prioritize anyone except the guy who's about to die then you're doing something wrong, as a lot of the time losing a DPS on one of these fights means that you won't make the DPS check.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5715
The only "hard" parts of instancing that i have faced is having to manage my mana closer and be smart with my heals. its more fun than having this endless mana pool and just spam flash of light/holy light. u do that ur oom in 5 casts. that and when tanking acutally having to use my cooldowns and use my holy charges to heal myself/the group. it definitely adds an aspect to the game that it has been lacking for some time and a lot of people have not faced. this will weed out the good players from the mediocre and will be much invited by me at least.
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85 Human Paladin
5880
* Too many tanks what to face pull
* I can't heal through stupid anymore
* Randoms aren't worth the hassle when the above mentioned issues occur (which is almost always)
* Bring your own food and bandages because I can't/won't "top you off" between pulls... I'll be drinking to regen my mana... /Somad

* profit?

Seriously though, of the groups I have run with only one or two have been willing to stop and discuss pulls and utilize cc, and if the group does wipe, come back and try again. People have no patience, and no tact; it doesn't really take any longer to be nice about telling someone how to improve their performance versus resorting to petty name calling and vote-kicking.
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100 Tauren Druid
10825
Heroics seem to be perfectly well tuned so far at the iLevel 329-346 range. With a decent group and some knowledge of fight mechanics, I find that healing is pleasantly challenging.

Successful kills really feel like an accomplishment, which is a big change from the sleepwalks of the last expansion. I can only speak from a Druid perspective, but I think Blizzard nailed the proper mix of spell abilities and resources (mana & cooldowns).

Guild runs are just what I expected, highly coordinated with a high success rate and minimal (unintentional) jackassery, especially with the old school players. Brings back memories of UBRS and Scholo when they were new and difficult.

PUGs are a mixed bag, I've had a couple of really excellent random groups, and a few horrorshows. Seriously, if you won't take the time to read up on the fight mechanics, at least run an instance on normal before trying the heroic version. This seems to be the #1 source of fail - cluelessness.

The complexity and variety of boss mechanics is fantastic. Properly geared and skilled, the workload required for success is spread nicely between DPS, healer, and tank. From my healing perspective, tanks with over 130K health are in good shape, and DPS over 6K seems to be adequate (8-10K is awesome). I mostly see problems with DPS putting out sub-4K numbers. You get a couple of those in the group, and I can feel the responsibility for success punch me in the face.


TL;DR: I love the new heroics, they are tuned perfectly.
Edited by Tbag on 12/15/2010 12:20 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11745
12/15/2010 12:11 PMPosted by Tbag
TL;DR: I love the new heroics, they are tuned perfectly.


/signed
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