Hit and Expertise are pointless

90 Orc Death Knight
0
Old topic I know, but it still doesn't make sense to have these in the game. The arguments:

There is no choice involved
- Hit and Expertise are better than other stats until you reach the cap. In this regard they are simply an item-budget tax that everyone has to pay. There would be no difference in the game if they were just removed and the item budgets lowered.

False variety is not variety
- One of the main arguments for their inclusion is variety in itemisation. This is largely false variety because nobody takes the item because they want to try a "hit" build.

"Penalty if you don't" isn't fun
- The distinction between hit and crit is that the former is a "penalty if you don't" stat, whereas the latter is a "reward if you do". That's a fairly fine distinction, and it is mostly to do with the way our perception works, but that doesn't make it any less true. Fun factor should trump all, and being "penalised" (in the players mind) for not hitting the cap isn't fun.

Addendum: remove primary stats from gems
- Primary stats are trumping gem choice again. You might see Str/Hit to make a blue bonus, and Str/Mastery to make a yellow bonus, but overall the primary stats are just too good.
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90 Human Paladin
12095
you can't be serious with this thread.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
9775
There are some exceptions. Hit and expertise have real caps so it's intended that they are very good up until their caps. It's a longer discussion than I can fit in this blog, but we like how cappable stats affect the gearing decision -- the puzzle of which gems to use or how to reforge is often played because you want to hit that hit number without going over. Likewise, Spirit is the kind of stat that healers will only need "enough" of, and once they feel comfortable with their mana regen, additional Spirit will be less attractive than other secondary stats. (This sort of thing also depends a lot on the encounter mind you.) Mastery is a new stat for us, and while it's working great for some talent specs, we'll almost certainly have to tweak it for others in a future patch (Unholy and Retribution come to mind, because their masteries currently affect sources of damage that just aren't large enough to be competitive).

Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1550772
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90 Orc Death Knight
0
Posted by Durenas

Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1550772


The puzzle offers some minor satisfaction, but still no real choice. One of the great things about mastery/crit/haste is that the is some genuine choice between them.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
9775
And I say that choice is an illusion. There will always be a stat that is more valuable to you than the others. For example, (secondary stats only), If I'm hit capped, and expertise capped, haste is the best stat bar none. If I had to choose between 2 items, totally identical in every other way, but one has haste and one has crit, I'd take the haste, because that stat is more valuable to me.
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90 Human Paladin
12095
12/14/2010 9:04 PMPosted by Durenas
And I say that choice is an illusion. There will always be a stat that is more valuable to you than the others. For example, (secondary stats only), If I'm hit capped, and expertise capped, haste is the best stat bar none. If I had to choose between 2 items, totally identical in every other way, but one has haste and one has crit, I'd take the haste, because that stat is more valuable to me.


haste and crit are both equally valuable at present, mastery half as valuable as both of them. for ret, anyway.
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90 Orc Death Knight
0
12/14/2010 9:06 PMPosted by Tailswipe
If hit and expertise didn't exist, you would just stack a different stat. There is no choice. In the world of min/maxing, there is always a best choice, and you're always going to be gearing for it. Your problem is that hit and expertise don't make your @#** hit harder, and for some reason you think that makes them boring stats.


Well that's no longer true. There are plenty of specs that have a choice between two stats currently - though not all of them.

The logic of "all stats are equal because you just stack one" doesn't hold up. If you look at it from the experience point of view, I get quite a different end result depending on whether I stack haste or crit. Do I prefer a higher frequency of smaller hits, or lower frequency of larger ones?

As I stated in the OP, hit an expertise don't offer any positive incentive, they just remove a negative one. I don't get a more interesting or varied game experience from capping these, they just remove the annoyance of sometimes having to press a button again because it "missed" the first time.
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90 Orc Death Knight
0

And you get a different experience from stacking hit or expertise. Do you like to hit harder or faster but miss more often, or do you like to hit slightly more often but hit slightly less hard? How is that different from critting more often to hitting quicker?


If that was a real choice you would have a point, but it isn't. The DPS per point of hit before the hit cap is so high that all choice is removed - even primary stats are generally ignored in favour of hit.

So would you disagree with the hit penalty being reduced to the point where hit was around the same item budget value as crit and haste?

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90 Night Elf Death Knight
7520
WTF is up with this forum and quoting?
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90 Orc Death Knight
0

Ideally, I wouldn't disagree. But realistically I'm saying that there are almost never scenarios as a DPS class where you can gem for whatever you prefer and get equal results. Hence why I'm not necessarily bothered by hit and expertise being important stats. As a Fury Warrior, I can't realistically hit the hard hit cap, so I aim for 20ish% and then gem/itemize for my next most valuable stat. Of course, an item with equal amounts of hit and crit will be easy to decide upon, but the same would be true of crit and haste if they remove hit/expertise requirements.


Fury warriors have a slightly better relationship with hit than the rest of us since it scales your damage past the "cap" that everyone else deals with.
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85 Goblin Death Knight
0
I stack expertise because I feel it's unethical to stab my enemies in the back.
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85 Orc Warrior
2290
OP, I think you've completely missed the whole point of stats like hit and expertise.

The point with those stats is to itemize your gear appropriately.

Needing a certain amount of something and having it "cap out" are important, because as you upgrade you gear you have to continually itemize your gear so you always "have enough, but not too much." In that way it adds depth to the game.

They want people having to think about gemming and enchants, and reforging, and even gear choices. Without stats like hit and expertise, there is really no need to pay attention to anything about your gear besides item level and primary stats.

If you're wearing item 1 and item 2 drops and its a higher item level, its a no brainer upgrade, if crit produces the most dps per point, you'd always gem, reforge and enchant for crit right? but what if you changed a piece of gear that put you below hit cap? now you're going to want to rethink some of your crit gems.

They want you to have to think a bit, I realize that that doesn't appeal to everyone, but I personally enjoy exercising my brain a bit. (even though maintaining hit/expertise caps takes about as much mental excersize as reciting the alphabet, it's still something)
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12700
Fun factor should trump all, and being "penalised" (in the players mind) for not hitting the cap isn't fun.

You're going to have to accept opinions differing from your own. Many, many players enjoy design in which internal logic limits total values for a unit, so that increased values in one variable limit values in another variable.

There are plenty of examples, from character or vehicle creation in tabletop games to the classic choices of big/slow-tiny/fast-medium/balanced in Mario Kart. It's engaging and challenging because — guess what — it reflects reality, where you could build a P-47 or you could build an A6M, but not a contemporary design combining each aircraft's strengths and eliminating their accompanying weaknesses.

The function of Hit and Expertise is much simpler, but is drawn from the same concept and fun for that reason. Optimum performance requires two components to be kept in reasonable proportion to other stats. It's a fundamental thing. You need a transmission to accelerate; you need an attitude that maintains lift while ascending. It's not as if a character with either stat uncapped can't enter a raid. Instead, maximum output will simply be reduced according to the established failure rate — so there is a choice (which is probably why Blizzard removed Defense and not the other two ratings), and it's one made over the course of weeks through the interaction of a dozen sets of numbers.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
There would be no difference in the game if they were just removed and the item budgets lowered.

There is a difference, actually.

Blizzard basically wants you to play a virtual game of the Knapsack Problem: "I need x amount of hit, with a total budget of z size, various-sized blocks of hit and various-sized blocks of other-stats. I need to maximize the amount of other-stats I can get by filling in my hit needs without going under nor over, with these various sized blocks"

This game tended to fall apart in the pre-Cata days since the amount of hit needed never changed, yet the sizes of the blocks kept getting larger, but they've supposedly addressed that by increasing the amount of hit you need in proportion to the larger item budgets you'll have as gear progression kicks in.

If hit was removed completely, the itemization metagame would be changed in such a manner that Blizzard might not intend.

False variety is not variety

Not to you, but certainly to Blizzard. They consider Flasks to be choice simply because you can make the "wrong" decision of a Rogue drainking a spell power flask over an AP flask.
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