Divine Light > Holy Light now

87 Blood Elf Paladin
5620
Yeah I've switched to just using Divine Light on my Beacon now. The extra time I gain from doing that (due to higher HPS) enables me to cast Judgement more comfortably as well.

Although I'm not having as much fun as spamming Holy Light to generate lots of Holy Power very very efficient :(
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37 Blood Elf Warlock
6870
You cannot just add 30% to WoG for Eternal Glory... Doing so boosts the HPS of the spell by 30%, which the talent does not.

Then consider that if you cast that Divine Light off beacon:
Divine Light: 22,727 + 11,363
30% base mana / 7,420 mana; 2.5 second cast
34,090 / 2.5 = 13,636 HPS
34,090 / 7420 = 4.59 HPM

Oh look. DL is even better. But all I did was show you how %*#!ty WoG is, not how powerful DL is...

Holy Light: 8,520 + 4260
9% base mana / 2,226 mana; 2.5 second cast
12,780 / 2.5 = 5,112 HPS
12,780 / 2,226 = 5.74 HPM

Oh look, HL is back. Right?

Also the mana cost of HL is 2107.98 and the mana cost of DL is 7026.6. I have no idea where you pulled your numbers from.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Faelyne, there are some mistakes with his analysis (you've certainly poked plenty of holes in mine, and I love you for it!), but his conclusion is PARTIALLY right.

ToR makes DL the ideal choice (with respect to HPM) for SINGLE target healing. The fact you get better HPS doing so is a pleasant surprise. Now how often do we only need single target healing? Not often, but often enough it's something to consider.

We'll take worst case scenarios for HPS and dump @ 1 HP, If you're dumping @ 3HP, I approximate the extra GCD of WoG/LoD to 1/3 of a GCD/HP.
DL on Beacon->1HP WoG Dump
Heal: 27347
Time: (2.5+1.5)/H, being lazy, let H=1 when it's really 1.17 raid buffed even with 0 rating.
Mana:7027
HPS: 6836.75
HPM: 3.892

DL on Beacon->1HP WoG Dump->EG 1HP WoG Dump (30% probability of happening)
Heal: 31967
Time: (2.5+1.5+1.5)/H
Mana:7027
HPS: 5812.18
HPM: 4.549

Weighted Averaged HPM: 4.0891

DL on Beacon->6x LoD Transfer (LoD itself does 0 healing)
Heal:22,727 + 5292 (Don't hit the tank) or 6174 (Hit the tank)
Time: (2.5+1.5)/H
Mana:7027
HPS: 7004.75 or 7225.25
HPM: 3.987 or 4.113

HL Spam
Heal: 8,520
Time: (2.5)/H
Mana:2108
HPS: 3408
HPM: 4.04

Heal #'s Used:
Word of Glory: 4,620,
Divine Light: 22,727
Holy Light: 8,520
LoD: ~1764 per target

So for SINGLE target heals only, the best choice is to use ToR DL with LoD on 5 melee and 1 Tank for optimal HPM. You happen to get better HPS doing so as well. If you can't do this, EG just barely squeezes DL past HL in terms of HPM. HPS is considerably higher.

If anyone besides the beacon requires heals, you're better off using HL and using beacon transfers with regards to HPM.
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85 Worgen Warrior
3090
I think im missing something. How exactly does judging give mana back?
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12/16/2010 9:08 AMPosted by Zyloh
I think im missing something. How exactly does judging give mana back?

Seal of insight...
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8360
Using DL when the tank needs it is one thing; only using DL because the math shows that its edging out HL for HPM is another.

I spam HL and its usually enough to keep the group topped off. If I am -only- healing the tank; when he's not taking large amounts of damage I cast HL in between judging. Why? Daybreak procs more often which in turn mean more LoD which in turn means less DL needed which in turn means I can still outheal most other classes. Sure DL still procs daybreak; but you're casting 1/3rd the number of heals.

Using HL and DL on the tank when needed (which was not often) I healed the first boss of SFK for over 7 min because our interruptors sucked. I ended with 25% mana.

Skill is going to be the decisive factor in healing now. Showing math that DL has a slight advantage over HL doesn't show someone that spamming DL will run someone out of mana far faster than spamming HL simply because that HPM does not factor time and regen into the equation.

You go ahead and never cast HL; I'll keep doing what I am doing (which works just fine).

EDIT: DL -barely- edges out HL on HPM... which makes this entire argument moot. The point is to use heals BASED ON THE SITUATION. Which means that HL is best used when damage is not huge; if the tank is low but there's no huge rush use DL; if you need to heal the tank NOW use FL. If you have HP saved up; you can always use that instead.

I do love how much argument has errupted over a 0.07 difference in HPM.
Edited by Telorith on 12/16/2010 9:32 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
5730
I do things similarly, Telorith. I've started using DL more frequently on the beacon, but I use HL a lot for Daybreak procs. While RNG is a factor I dislike, I find it's a lot more efficient to almost always have an extra HS or enough HP available so I don't have to resort to FoL unless it's absolutely necessary.

That's why I'm leaning towards a haste/spirit itemization model. IoL is nice, but it's not very reliable, so having an HL which is not agonizingly slow (even with talents and judgements of the pure) makes it easier to farm daybreak procs (and minimize FoL). The "upwind" boss in H-VP makes me wish that I had enough haste for a GCD-capped HL, but maybe that will be possible in a few tiers.
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85 Human Paladin
4700
The point is to heal effectively. Manage your Holy Power and use it effectively.

Overhealing is not wanted. Holy Light is useful in the sense that the tank is the beacon target and you're using Holy Light on the party and not the tank. Putting Holy Shocks in on the party.
Throwing Divine Light and Flash of Light needed on the tank when he gets around 80-85%.

BUT do not worry if you're not stacking Holy Power fast enough.
Light of Dawn has become moot, and Word of Glory.. well, is Word of Glory a free heal that's between Holy and Divine Light.

To be honest I wouldn't worry about trying to get 3 stacks as often and using it.

You could be at two2 stacks cast a Word of Glory on a party member and have Eternal Glory proc. Possibly having Blessed Life proc to give you a third.

Yes, a lot of people are complaining about how fast we generate Holy Power and the mechanic being broken. I agree to it being not as useful.. not broken however.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4195
Last night I ran my first heroic and tried spamming divine light on a boss fight. I healed everyone really well until about 1 minute into the fight when I went OOM. Then everyone died.

Second try, I used holy light exclusively. Everyone was kept alive just fine, and we had little trouble downing the boss. Yes there were periods when people got low, but I was patient and healed them up with holy light and they got up to full easily.

Maybe it changes when you get better gear; after all, if my iLevel was 1 lower, I wouldn't be allowed to run heroics right now. But at this point, like what 10 days into Cataclysm? let's be realistic and say that not everyone is going to be geared to the gills just yet, and maybe not for weeks either. But right now I'm going to keep using holy light like there's no tomorrow.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Enola, I noticed that you don't have points in either talent that increases the range of judgment. Do you find Blessed Life to be more useful in Heroics/Raids? Do you cast Judgment on CD for mana regen?
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85 Human Paladin
4700
12/16/2010 10:57 AMPosted by Belfpally
Enola, I noticed that you don't have points in either talent that increases the range of judgment. Do you find Blessed Life to be more useful in Heroics/Raids? Do you cast Judgment on CD for mana regen?


I do cast Judgment. However I only cast it on boss fight I run around a lot during boss fights to position myself with melee when I use to cast LoD and I haven't stopped playing like that.

Honestly, just a few minutes ago I was debating on picking up 'Improved Judgment' I might do so removing the two points from Last Word.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Do you consider Blessed Life a must have talent?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4800

You can easy, hl..shock, shock, word of glory the tank to full. If you keep a good rotation of your heals, judges ( every 5 secs ) and divine plea there will be no worries for mana either. I honestly think people are just complaining for the hell of it.


im not complaining about the changes, but what tank you get to full with that rotation, thats 40k healing, 1/3 of an average tanks life, and an heroic boss does more than 40k dmg in the time spam it takes or you to cast all those 4 spells, it 5sh seconds on GCD alone.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6210
What blizz is tryin to do is to get us to focus more on our combination of healing instead of mass spaming 2 heals..



Flash heal - Oh ##%@ tank might die heal



Holy light- Average heal



Divine Light - massive heal for heavy damage



Word of glory - insta cast free spell with holy power



Light of dawn - insta cast aoe heal with holy power



Holy radiance - AOE heal



Holy Shock - Insta heal on target





With the amount of heals we have at hand there should be no reason for anyone qq'n about the new nerfs. You can easy, hl..shock, shock, word of glory the tank to full. If you keep a good rotation of your heals, judges ( every 5 secs ) and divine plea there will be no worries for mana either. I honestly think people are just complaining for the hell of it.


I would tend to agree, but if we only rely on holy shock to grant us Holy power, we will have a 18 second cooldown on Light of Dawn, and that is our "spammable" aoe heal. I cant imagine a group surviving a raid encounter with 18 second 8k heals. Holy radiance has such a long cooldown and declines rapidly past 8yds that i dont consider it a true aoe heal.

Ive gotten past this by CS for the extra HP, but that leaves me stripes me of a gcd for healing, not to mention trying not to stand in fire. Divine light is all i do, at least in dungeons ive forsaken holy light off my bars and manage alright for now.
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85 Human Paladin
4700
12/16/2010 11:24 AMPosted by Belfpally
Do you consider Blessed Life a must have talent?


Yes, it's a nice way to gain Holy Power.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
12/16/2010 9:29 AMPosted by Telorith
I do love how much argument has errupted over a 0.07 difference in HPM.

Did you miss the whole point of the math? The HPM is the basically the same, but the HPS is HUGELY different. I corrected for the GCD error and there's still a net increase of 70% HPS.

And second when the boss is swinging for 20k, 0.07 HPM translates to 1400 mana per swing. That might not make or break you, but it is significant.

Is it true that this situation is relatively rare? Yes. Is it true there is more variance in HPM due to EG procs? Yes.

The point however, isn't that the HPM is better. The point is we can maintain the same HPM, but get vastly better HPS. That gives us some free time. Worst case, we're going to sit on our thumbs and do nothing. Best case, we can do something else, like cleanse or Divine Plea.

If there's going to be any argument against this, it's that we're almost never going to run into a situation where the tank is the ONLY person that needs heals.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/16/2010 12:34 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6210
I dont know if anyones mentioned it before, but i didnt see any mention of PoTi talent which gives around 3-4k healing to the tank PER heal, so id think HL will still edge out. In any case, i use DL on tank/HL on others so i have more time to melee for mana. Meh.. works for me.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
12/16/2010 12:33 PMPosted by Velcat
3-4k healing to the tank PER heal

So accounting for PotI:

DL on Beacon->1HP WoG Dump
Heal: 31967+7k
Time: (2.5+1.5)/H
Mana:7027
HPS: 9741.75
HPM: 5.545

DL on Beacon->1HP WoG Dump->EG 1HP WoG Dump (30% probability of happening)
Heal: 31967+10.5k
Time: (2.5+1.5+1.5)/H
Mana:7027
HPS: 7721.27
HPM: 6.04

Weighted Average:
HPS: 9135.606
HPM: 5.6935

HL Spam:
Heal: 8,520+3.5k
Time: (2.5)/H
Mana:2108
HPS: 3408
HPM: 5.574

So HPM is basically still the same. ToR rotations would be able to slow down by a factor of 2.68 for HL Spam to catch up.

Again, I'd like to reiterate, this only applies if the TANK IS THE ONLY TARGET THAT REQUIRES HEALS.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/16/2010 12:49 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
2475
Yep, this is basicly how I have see it as well. I've been mainly healing with Divine Light, Holy Shock, WoG. I've also started doing more raid healing by keeping beacon glyphed and moving it around to get everyone up. The key is to avoid overhealing, which isnt very hard to do now.

Stack spirit/haste, Judgement every CD, holy shock every CD, wait for tank to take a DL'able hit, do as little as possible so that your mana regens until the next DL.

Oh but I should add that I only use DL on the beacon target as to benefit from the holy power gain.

Did our first raid last night and downed Conclave of Wind. My mastery outhealed my holy light and I never had mana issues.
Edited by Prettylights on 12/16/2010 12:59 PM PST
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