Crowd Control, Interrupts, and your group.

(Locked)

85 Blood Elf Priest
2895
I've been hoping for a post with this info for a few weeks now. Thank you!

I have been having a lot of fun mind controlling in Vortex Pinnacle.
85 Orc Hunter
3425
"Scare Beast" is missing. Hunter fear against Beasts.
85 Blood Elf Priest
3670
You guys are proving something to me.

For every DPS in randoms that insist they don't have Polymorph or Freezing Trap, there is another guy somewhere else that knows even the most seldom used abilities. Sadly this second guy catches hell because his pugmates have ran into the mage who spent 10 minutes looking through his spellbook for Polymorph.

You guys are the ones that do bust out intimidating shout or psychic scream (I do) when you need a second. You guys might be the type to pop a taunt just because the tank isn't, and even if it kills you, you take your rest, and get ready to go again. Sadly nothing in game lights up your name when you really know your game so that the party knows.

I had a pro DK tank thrilled with me last night because, as heals, I know what fade is and I glyph Psychic Scream.

* Hamstring removed.
* Paragraph about single target snares added
* Scare beast happily added.
90 Undead Priest
12915
11/10, would read again, would recommend to everyone, would force on everyone, would brainwash everyone with, would cram into everyone's skulls.
85 Night Elf Druid
5690
I thought I'd mention Druids also have Soothe, which stops an enrage effect. Dunno how you'd categorize it though, since it's so specialized.

Excellent guide. Thank you.
Edited by Eillan on 12/22/2010 8:09 AM PST
81 Draenei Shaman
0
12/15/2010 5:42 PMPosted by Whynot
Boomkin R* is the most effective.


it's no different than feral or resto root.

12/15/2010 5:47 PMPosted by Whynot
Bears cannot use this in bear form. I am not sure about cat form.


no warstomp in cat either.

Bash - 5s dur/1m cd/50s talented; Bear and Cat form


can't use bash in cat form.
What I've found most effective for mind control (though also most annoying to the GOGOGOGOGOGOnow crowd), is actually to use it pre-pull. There was a brief period in Beta when MC lasted twice as long, so you could use it for all of the fight, but it ends pretty quickly now. It can just break, moving the priest breaks it, moving the mob out of your line of sight does, and when your mob dies it breaks (naturally enough).

So my preferred way to use it is - a rogue should sap and get out of the way, the priest then mind controls eg the mob you want taken out first, and uses it to attack your second priority target - his buddies do the work of killing him for you, while you and your dps get ready to engage but don't do anything to pull aggro (this includes Horn of Winter).

Two advantages - the mob holds all the aggro of his buddies, so they do a lot more damage to him than if he is fighting to get their attention. And the cc does not cc the priest at the same time, because when it breaks, the priest hits fade, the tank picks up the mobs, and the priest is ready to pew pew and move out of fire. Choosing the best mob varies - it can be the one you want taken out first, or it can be the one who will be sure to die faster. The giblin aquamages die extremely fast to the hunters, for example.

The main disadvantage is up to 30 seconds of waiting around, admiring the priest's casting animation. The other is it can break quite suddenly making certain other ccs - especially traps - harder to time.

Note this way of using mind control would also allow a healer to use it in extremis, if you have limited other cc.

85 Blood Elf Priest
3670
Heh Nimbosa,

Thanks. The entangling roots bit was an incorrect assumption of mine from a leftover wrath talent that did increase the effect.

Bash and Warstomp have been updated as well. Should someone read this thread, they can have a macro that works like this, I wouldn't suggest the same for bears but it would work.

/cancelaura Cat Form
/cast War Stomp
/cast Cat Form

You would need to hit the macro twice though.

Moragg,

I think I covered most of the MC information throughout the several pages. Including early breaks, breaks related to hit rating and distance. I also tested and covered the fact that casting Leap of Faith on a player charming another causes the charm channel to break.

Your advice here on using MC to basically kill a mob is fine, but I think that falls under experienced player tactics, there are also extreme risks as the distance between a party waiting for pickup and the mobs is often not that great, if it does break early, for whatever reason, it can lead to more hassle than it is worth.

Thank you for very nice insight.
Whynot, I agree you had covered most of the MC weaknesses earlier, I was just repeating them to make my post self contained.

I agree you need a party that is on their toes to use this, but from the priest's point of view , it has significantly less risks than mcing at the start of or mid-pull, when the priest is themselves rooted to the ground and unable to see let alone move out of aoe etc. It always should be cast at maximum distance of course, but I've found the tanks willing to use CC (experienced player tactics?) at all are generally pretty quick to gather up the mobs when it breaks. Even when I MC'd an aquamage at the tank's direction, and the giblin hunters killed it before I could even find his action bar (I now suggest MCing the hunter giblins btw!)

If the mob doesn't die and MC breaks because the channelling time ends, the priest will be able to give some warning (if they don't, ask them to macro in 'mc breaking' or something), & if the mob is a prime target, the tank can have him targeted and see his health about to go too.

Believe me, I'll do whichever version of MC my tank asks for, and just be happy he's using my skills. But given a choice I prefer this method, and if as the tank you're trying to get other players to fully utilise their skills, this is one way to try.



85 Troll Warrior
3190
Very useful, thank you! This will help me out a lot!

I know now to be more observant of who's in my party and who has what abilities. Also if abilities are talent specific or class should be discerned for easier referencing.

Like Intimidating Shout is Class specific but Piercing Howl is talent specific.

I'm going to copy what you have and add it in myself for personal referencing till I learn em. =]
85 Blood Elf Priest
3670
I'll agree that Chains is a last resort CC, however, like I said before, it does offer some benefits--no DR and castable at range and the fact that DKs are getting a lot of hate for having no CC abilities. HIghlighting one of the tools they do bring is a benefit to the class.

It's all about rune management, your saurfang example is great. Some DKs could nail every assigned add, every time, they gimped their rotation as the timer came close and pulled it off, others had issues while cranking their best TPS and still keeping a rune ready.
85 Blood Elf Hunter
3170
just tested and treezing trap is 60 seconds, even with the descrition saying 90
85 Tauren Warrior
6835








Most CCs will pull the mobs, so the tank should be ready to grab them..


I wouldn't recommend that this be suggested as a general rule. Often times it is more advantageous for the tank to pull, get initial threat on all targets and then have CC land. This makes it much easier to make sure that everything that isn't getting CCd sticks to the tank while having the added benefit that the CCd targets (with the exception of trapped targets, see below) already have the tank as highest threat when they break so if they break early, the tank has an easier time controlling them and they don't go run off and kill a DPS or healer.

For hunter traps I suggest that if a tank marks a melee mob, that you distract the mob too your trap away from the pack, rather than using the launcher. Less CC near the tank and DPS means more splash/aoe damage on the kill targets that aren't being CCd and therefore quicker pulls. This also frees up your Launcher CD to use for DPS shortly after the pull. With many pulls have multiple casters, it can sometimes be very difficult to to move the unCCd targets away from the CCd ones and should always be a consideration when planning CC.

All in all, this is a great compilation of class abilities and should serve as a great resource for those not aware of what all they have at there disposal to make each pull a success.









85 Gnome Mage
2445
12/22/2010 7:33 AMPosted by Whynot
You guys are proving something to me.

For every DPS in randoms that insist they don't have Polymorph or Freezing Trap, there is another guy somewhere else that knows even the most seldom used abilities. Sadly this second guy catches hell because his pugmates have ran into the mage who spent 10 minutes looking through his spellbook for Polymorph.

You guys are the ones that do bust out intimidating shout or psychic scream (I do) when you need a second. You guys might be the type to pop a taunt just because the tank isn't, and even if it kills you, you take your rest, and get ready to go again. Sadly nothing in game lights up your name when you really know your game so that the party knows.


This makes me think of all the times I Frost Nova'd a mob that was attacking the healer, and instead of moving to, say, the other side of the tank so that the healer is no longer in melee range and after the nova breaks the tank and pick the mob up again...

He just keeps standing there.

Even after I tell the healer to move.

And at times the healer dies.

Ugh.

But I am very grateful that I joined the game during Vanilla. It taught me how to CC, when to use slowing spells, protect my healer, and to an extent threat ping-pong and kite though I am none too good at these last two things. I can also be a decurse bot, but that's hardly even necessary anymore...



Oh and with the above said, I've seen some expert huntards use Freezing Traps in way that make me in awe of them. It's remarkable how some of them can really keep a mob CC'd for an extended period of time.


ANYWAY, SUGGESTIONS AND THOUGHTS: I read your snares paragraph, and if what you are saying is the case, then there are still a ton of snares you really should include.

I understand why you removed Hamstring. Really, that is a more a PvP snare than anything. But there are so many other snares that cost very little mana and time to cast or even are just a natural secondary effect of DPS abilities.

For instance, Frost Mages will still mostly chain cast Frost Bolt on single targets and thus usually have the chill effect up on mobs that are not immune to movement slowing effects. In addition, for AoE they will rely heavily on Blizzard, and they will most likely have at least one talent point in the talent which gives it an AoE chilling effect. Frost mages also may use Cone of Cold simply because it is a high DPS AoE ability, not just because of its 50% 8 s snare. Arcane mages also will have Slow up on any single targeting they are DPS'ing since they have a talent that makes Arcane Blast put it up on their target (note that only ONE target can affected by Slow per mage at any time). Finally, Fire mages usually have Blast Wave, which is both a staple AoE'ing talent and an AoE 70% snare for 3 seconds.

Also, for Aff locks (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7927/431aflac.jpg), many of them will have the optional Curse of Exhaustion talent, which is a cheap 50% movement speed snare that lasts for 30s only takes 1 GCD to cast. It can be easily used with targets that have been CC'd with Fear, for instance, with a macro in order to help buy a little more time if something happens. This is of course completely optional, but it really doesn't take too much away from a warlock's DPS.

If you are going to include a DK's CoI as a viable snare, you should include the ones above as well, as they either are secondary effects of DPS spells or cost as little in terms of effort as CoI.


Now a SP's Mind Flay I can understand not including, as it is channeled. I can also understand not including a rogue's Deadly Throw since it requires combo points. Nonetheless, I think they both should be taken into consideration as well: if a humanoid is running away at low health, either of these two abilities might prevent an accidental pull of another group. (Do humanoids in instances still run away in fear, or is that another thing which has changed?)
85 Blood Elf Priest
3670
This makes me think of all the times I Frost Nova'd a mob that was attacking the healer, and instead of moving to, say, the other side of the tank so that the healer is no longer in melee range and after the nova breaks the tank and pick the mob up again...

He just keeps standing there.

Even after I tell the healer to move.

And at times the healer dies.


Yep, and there's the many times the mage frost nova'd and jumped away to get things off of themselves and caused another range to die.

It's a difficult scenario for some healers, when adds come in like that, they're usually chain casting, and as moving interrupts casting, that's hard for some people to deal with.


...

For instance, Frost Mages will still mostly chain cast Frost Bolt on single targets and thus usually have the chill effect up on mobs that are not immune to movement slowing effects. In addition, for AoE they will rely heavily on Blizzard, and they will most likely have at least one talent point in the talent which gives it an AoE chilling effect. Frost mages also may use Cone of Cold simply because it is a high DPS AoE ability, not just because of its 50% 8 s snare. Arcane mages also will have Slow up on any single targeting they are DPS'ing since they have a talent that makes Arcane Blast put it up on their target (note that only ONE target can affected by Slow per mage at any time). Finally, Fire mages usually have Blast Wave, which is both a staple AoE'ing talent and an AoE 70% snare for 3 seconds.

Also, for Aff locks (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7927/431aflac.jpg), many of them will have the optional Curse of Exhaustion talent, which is a cheap 50% movement speed snare that lasts for 30s only takes 1 GCD to cast. It can be easily used with targets that have been CC'd with Fear, for instance, with a macro in order to help buy a little more time if something happens. This is of course completely optional, but it really doesn't take too much away from a warlock's DPS.


Good points! My thoughts here is that passive single target snares like Chill and Slow are, like you said, there without thought, it would be like me listing Demo Shout for damage reduction when every tank should be applying it as much as they can anyway.

Curse of Exhaustion however is far more useful than CoI, longer duration, less opportunity cost and deserves to be added.

Do you agree about passively applied effects? DK's Desecration, while passive, is there because it is an aoe effect and because people need to appreciate what DK's do bring to the table for cc.

Thankfully, humanoids in high level instances no longer by default flee at low health but it's commonplace low level and is what leads to the majority of wipes in lowbie dungeons. Poor little group is running on fumes and here's a new pack, probably heading for the healer rather than the tank. A few mobs in stonescore do run away at low health but that's the point of their existence, kill them before they do.

Edit: Whoops, totally missed the part about blast wave. Adding that.
Edited by Whynot on 12/22/2010 4:21 PM PST
85 Gnome Mage
2445
12/22/2010 3:57 PMPosted by Whynot
Yep, and there's the many times the mage frost nova'd and jumped away to get things off of themselves and caused another range to die.

It's a difficult scenario for some healers, when adds come in like that, they're usually chain casting, and as moving interrupts casting, that's hard for some people to deal with.


I didn't mean to be critical of healers in general; Lord knows they get enough blame as it is.

And yes, I have FN'd things to protect myself, only to have another ranged die... whoops >_>;

But still, usually when fighting trash mob packs it would be better for them to take a couple seconds to move since it costs less time than having to alternate between healing themselves and the tank, not to mention some degree of pushback from getting hit or the fact that there's a lower threat cap to aggro in melee range.

And yeees... I know that because healers have to stare at health bars, it's harder for them to have situational awareness than other classes. It's just frustrating to watch them get pummeled while I've rooted the pummeler for them :p

Good points! My thoughts here is that passive single target snares like Chill and Slow are, like you said, there without thought, it would be like me listing Demo Shout for damage reduction when every tank should be applying it as much as they can anyway.

Curse of Exhaustion however is far more useful than CoI, longer duration, less opportunity cost and deserves to be added.

Do you agree about passively applied effects? DK's Desecration, while passive, is there because it is an aoe effect and because people need to appreciate what DK's do bring to the table for cc.

Thankfully, humanoids in high level instances no longer by default flee at low health but it's commonplace low level and is what leads to the majority of wipes in lowbie dungeons. Poor little group is running on fumes and here's a new pack, probably heading for the healer rather than the tank. A few mobs in stonescore do run away at low health but that's the point of their existence, kill them before they do.


I see what you're getting at with passive snaring abilities. Well, still, I personally think it's a good idea to list them anyway. For one thing, having a snare component means that they have a duel purpose of being able to be used either as a DPS spell or as a snare. Secondly, if the point is to make other classes, especially tanks, aware of any and all control abilities, these snares are still bona-fide snares that act just like any other, and often they are just as powerful. Thirdly, AoE snares are great for helping the group keep AoE'd targets under control if, say, a tank misses one for whatever or the like.

I know that it represents a ton more work, but yeah, I think that even these secondary snare effects should definitely be included. A Frostbolt helps control a target just like CoE ;p

Also, thanks for the info on humanoids. Through WotLK it didn't even occur to me that humanoids no longer seemed to "run away in fear" in instances.
Edited by Wenry on 12/22/2010 4:16 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Priest
3670
Somehow--whoosh--I missed this post.

I wouldn't recommend that this be suggested as a general rule. Often times it is more advantageous for the tank to pull, get initial threat on all targets and then have CC land. This makes it much easier to make sure that everything that isn't getting CCd sticks to the tank while having the added benefit that the CCd targets (with the exception of trapped targets, see below) already have the tank as highest threat when they break so if they break early, the tank has an easier time controlling them and they don't go run off and kill a DPS or healer.


I see that you're 83, let me ask if you have anything at 85, and I mean that in the nicest way. Here's why: Generally, if you pull the mobs, melee come together making most CCs (pretty much anything but banish and chain casting cyclone) difficult to use. It takes strategic tactics and the right cc's to get the mob back out of a pack and cc'd.

We're not talking about the wrath syndrome of DPS pulling due to impatience, we're talking about the way to get the melee mob cc'd where he stands. Hunters and Priests are specially equipped with abilities to handle cc pulling. As are Ret paladins and Mages to be technical though DS and Iceblock have much longer cooldowns.

For hunter traps I suggest that if a tank marks a melee mob, that you distract the mob too your trap away from the pack, rather than using the launcher. Less CC near the tank and DPS means more splash/aoe damage on the kill targets that aren't being CCd and therefore quicker pulls. This also frees up your Launcher CD to use for DPS shortly after the pull. With many pulls have multiple casters, it can sometimes be very difficult to to move the unCCd targets away from the CCd ones and should always be a consideration when planning CC.


That is a viable tactic. The norm seems to be the use of trap launchers though. You seem to be of the opinion that a tank should charge in while all mobs are together and that's no longer ideal in many situations. Execute your cc's and as soon as they're sufficiently away from their resting location, you AS/Charge/what have you and begin tanking.

All in all, this is a great compilation of class abilities and should serve as a great resource for those not aware of what all they have at there disposal to make each pull a success.


I appreciate the review and the suggestions. I don't mean at all to question your experience as it may have sounded earlier in the post but most of the times the tank pulls, fewer mobs get cc'd.
85 Blood Elf Rogue
6450
Another one you missed, from the days of rogue stunlocking:

Rogue:
G+ X+ I- S- L- 26 Cheap Shot - 4s dur/no cd; requires stealth/shadowdance, 40 energy

Great post.
85 Human Paladin
0
Um, I've never heard of there being any difference between an interrupt and a school-lock.

Unless you're talking about the generic "interrupt" which is anything that can stop a cast, including stuns and silences. There is no specific "interrupt" that is distinct from a school-lock, anything that says "interrupt" is a school-lock (afaik, anyway).
Some things are both school-locks and silences (imp CS, avenger's shield, is Imp Kick still around?).

In other news, CoI can actuallly work quite well as a pseudo-CC. I remember leveling up my DK, fairly fail group, I ended up kiting some random mob around while the rest of the group killed the rest of the pack, because otherwise the tank was getting gibbed. Or maybe the tank died, I don't remember, I just remember kiting with CoI :) Of course that was back when it was a 95% degrading snare, so reapplying it every 4 seconds kept the mob reaaaally slow.
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]