To Healers, From a Tank

85 Undead Death Knight
6110
Heya healers, just wanted to ask you what you personal healing preferences were with regard to tanks on Heroic Trash and single-target Bosses.

Which tank makes healing multi-mob groups of trash less strenuous for you and why? Which tank is more strenuous?
Which tank makes healing single-target bosses less strenuous for you and why? Which tank is more strenuous?

Thanks for the feedback, and of course the heals :)

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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10515
I apologize in advance if what I say offends you, but there isn't much of clear answer to that. People can post their opinions here, and every one will be different. But a knowledgeable tank who knows how to gain threat, use cool-downs properly, have mitigation instead of stacking stamina is what I prefer.

As a small example, seeing a DK tank who doesn't drop a DnD before a trash pull of 3+ mobs.......
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85 Night Elf Druid
4310
I honestly havent noticed much of a difference yet.

my bad, just realized ur talkin heroics.
Edited by Híppy on 12/16/2010 12:01 AM PST
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85 Undead Death Knight
6110
12/15/2010 11:54 PMPosted by Sikmode
I apologize in advance if what I say offends you, but there isn't much of clear answer to that. People can post their opinions here, and every one will be different. But a knowledgeable tank who knows how to gain threat, use cool-downs properly, have mitigation instead of stacking stamina is what I prefer.

As a small example, seeing a DK tank who doesn't drop a DnD before a trash pull of 3+ mobs.......


Why would I be offended? And I realize the answers may vary, as I'm asking for subjective opinions based on personal experience. I just trying to gauge how different healers feel about different tanks.
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90 Tauren Shaman
6845
So far I've only done two days of heroics with 1 successfull H dungeon complete but this is what I think based on my limited experience.

Favourite tank for aoe- any for aoe mobs as long as they know what they're doing and when to use their CDs, though I prefer to CC as much as possible and aoe tank as little elites at a time.

Favourite tank for bosses- pretty even but Pali's slightly just because hey seem to take the least amount of dmg.

All around, all tanks are doing good as long as they have the skill. I've had druid tanks inervate me during boss fights, Palis LoH a dps who was at low HP and way out of my LoS for a heal. So the bottom line is any tank that knows how to play and help us out is a good tank.
Edited by Whiteout on 12/16/2010 12:12 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
2805
12/15/2010 11:46 PMPosted by Sinseer
Heya healers, just wanted to ask you what you personal healing preferences were with regard to tanks on Heroic Trash and single-target Bosses.

Which tank makes healing multi-mob groups of trash less strenuous for you and why? Which tank is more strenuous?
Which tank makes healing single-target bosses less strenuous for you and why? Which tank is more strenuous?

Thanks for the feedback, and of course the heals :)


I like healing tanks that have figured out that EHP is dead. Officially, completely, throughly dead.

When I see a tank trying to stack HP...I die a little on the inside.

I also like tanks that know how to use cooldowns, and don't ignore them on trash.

I absolutely love tanks that know how to NOT break CC with their AoEs.

Overall, class doesn't matter. If you know what you're doing, you'll be a joy to heal regardless.
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90 Troll Druid
15180
I don't notice a difference at all between classes. The biggest difference (by FAR) is between tanks that have successfully done an instance before, and those who haven't. It's painfully obvious.

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85 Undead Death Knight
6110
12/16/2010 12:12 AMPosted by Lashiel
I like healing tanks that have figured out that EHP is dead. Officially, completely, throughly dead.


Not that this really has to do with the OP, but how are you justifying this exactly?
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85 Draenei Shaman
8020
12/16/2010 12:19 AMPosted by Sinseer
I like healing tanks that have figured out that EHP is dead. Officially, completely, throughly dead.


Not that this really has to do with the OP, but how are you justifying this exactly?


Probably due to the fact that mitigation is much more important to tank survivability than 'time to live' is. Time to live was effectively how much healing you had to direct onto a tank to keep them alive - it had little concern for sustainability. Thus, EHP is dead because A) you need to be concerned with quantity of damage taken, not just duration due to mana being a scarce resource now, and B) EHP really mattered when your effective time to tank death was measured in tenths of seconds rather than tens of seconds.

Outright mitigating damage is much better now from a healing standpoint, as throughput has taken a (perhaps temporary) backseat to sustainability.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10515
I know what he means, in another thread I state that the tanks 150k HP will not impress me if is its reduced to 75k 3 seconds into a trash pull--which I have witnessed first hand. I'm not saying stamina is bad, it just doesn't top the chart in terms of tank stats like everyone seemed to think in Wrath.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3070
Mitigation is king now.

Every tank has enough hp to take a few hits, it's our mana bars that get destroyed by low mitigation. It's not just your chosen combination of armor/parry/block/dodge it's also how you rotate defensive cooldowns (they're not just panic buttons anymore), interrupt casts whenever possible and make sure to pull the pack away from CC'd targets.

It's not class as much as the player's ability to reduce incoming damage.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10515
Its also cool when you use your self heals.

<3

At this point a tank self healing now and again has a bigger impact on healer stress than one might imagine.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3210
12/16/2010 12:19 AMPosted by Sinseer
Not that this really has to do with the OP, but how are you justifying this exactly?


EH stacking had one raison d'être, and one only: To prevent being two-shot. It worked in conjunction with constantly being topped off, overhealing be damned.

This just isn't a relevant consideration for the current game anymore.

Health is still important to some degree so that heals actually have time to use their more efficient heals, but stacking it to the exclusion of everything else just makes you a mana sponge.

(EH stacking also never was particularly relevant outside of 25-player hardmodes in WotLK, either, but heals were so cheap that it didn't really matter much.)
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5175
Well my perspective on it is that tanks that know to get CC out is all you need. Yes avoidance is very helpful, but sometimes you cannot avoid certain types of damage, so in the end you need that Stm. But what it comes down to with gear being the way it is you must have CC. So I would worry more about what you bring with you in your groups.
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85 Undead Death Knight
6110



Not that this really has to do with the OP, but how are you justifying this exactly?


Probably due to the fact that mitigation is much more important to tank survivability than 'time to live' is.

Outright mitigating damage is much better now from a healing standpoint, as throughput has taken a (perhaps temporary) backseat to sustainability.


But you cannot stack mitigation as you can EH, with the exception of Mastery.

Avoidance is another matter altogether, and I do not see how avoidance is preferable to EH right now. Avoidance may help in large trash pulls, or it may not. Either way, avoidance does not help when it comes to spells or the large majority of high damage boss abilities.

And what about tanks, such as DK, whose ability to heal is directly related to EH? Death Strike and Rune Tap both deal directly with total health pool; and in the case of Death Strike, this also relates directly to mitigation via Blood Shield.

If mitigation is "king", then it follows that tanks without the ability to block via a shield are comparatively weak.

Is EH as universally valuable as it was in Wrath? Not likely. Is EH universally "dead"? I don't see how one can reasonably make such an assertion.

Further still, the vast majority of players have not even tasted the lion's share of raid content at this point, which makes it rather difficult to arrive at any objective conclusions about avoidance vs. EH.

Take Magmaw in BWD for instance; one cannot possibly argue that avoidance is preferable to EH in that encounter.

Edit: Also, if you are suggesting a pure avoidance gem/enchant composition, just how much more avoidance are you expecting that to produce? Maybe a couple to a few more percent? Do you honestly believe that is going to make a significant difference across the board?
Edited by Sinseer on 12/16/2010 1:02 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
10045
12/16/2010 12:12 AMPosted by Lashiel
I like healing tanks that have figured out that EHP is dead. Officially, completely, throughly dead.


Haha. How cute. No darlin, it ain't dead. Thats not to say mitigation and avoidance aren't important but up to a certain point, EH still is the top concern.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3210
12/16/2010 12:47 AMPosted by Sinseer
But you cannot stack mitigation as you can EH, with the exception of Mastery.


I think that's just a terminology issue. Most of the English speaking world would call what has been labeled as avoidance as mitigation also. The nitpicky distinction between avoidance and mitigation, with mitigation limited to abilities that reduce damage (Blizzard uses the term damage reduction instead in the rare cases where they actually refer to it) is largely a player-coined BC/LK thing, because one contributes to EH and one doesn't.

Restricting the usage of the term "mitigation" so much is problematic because it doesn't really leave you with a good term to describe the set of properties that reduce incoming DPS.

12/16/2010 12:47 AMPosted by Sinseer
Take Magmaw in BWD for instance; one cannot possibly argue that avoidance is preferable to EH in that encounter.


Haven't done that yet, but if he doesn't have abilities that two-shot tanks, then pure EH stacking isn't preferable.
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85 Draenei Paladin
5570
A tank who will avoid breaking CC, use cooldowns effectively, and use interrupts, stuns, and other utilities to mitigate as much damage as possible is my preference.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
6805
In my personal opinion so far, the higher a tank's avoidance, the easier for me to deal with. Because of this, the tanks that can block are winning for me. My guild tanks are a warrior and a paladin; the warrior is way easier to heal but his gear's a lot better than the paladin so I'm withholding judgement on those two. DK isn't bad, but the blocking tanks are clearly easier. Healing a druid tank chews through my mana noticeably more quickly than any of the other three by far.
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85 Undead Death Knight
6110
12/16/2010 1:33 AMPosted by Angelique
Most of the English speaking world would call what has been labeled as avoidance as mitigation also.


Not exactly. Mitigation is consistent, mitigation is absolute--at least within the realm of physical damage as it relates to WoW. Avoidance, with regards to WoW, cannot be described as such--avoidance in WoW is dependent on RNG. It either works, or it does not. Yes, you can increase the likelihood that it will work, but it will never work consistently or absolutely.

Admittedly I'm not as knowledgeable about the current state of Block and Warrior/Paladin Mastery in relation to block; so I'm not sure where that would fall.

In any case, I'm really not interested in debating the supposed etymology, terminology, proper usage, or common usage; and virtually none of this addresses any of the prior points made at all.

12/16/2010 1:33 AMPosted by Angelique
Haven't done that yet, but if he doesn't have abilities that two-shot tanks, then pure EH stacking isn't preferable.


Doesn't look like you've done much of any new content.

In any case, this is illogical. Your reasoning here is that just because a particular encounter may not have an ability that can effectively 2-shot a tank, avoidance must necessarily be better. First and foremost, you're operating under the assumption that there is no such ability. Secondly, you're suggesting that an absence of such an ability necessarily makes avoidance more beneficial. Neither of these suggestions are compelling or reasoned arguments I'm afraid.

In actuality, many relatively known bosses seem to have abilities which cannot be 'avoided' via dodge or parry; in fact, I'd be interested to know what significant boss abilities can be avoided via dodge or parry, if there are any. It stands to reason that this trend will continue throughout the expansion--at least for the most part. Further, this point is also rather apparent as it relates to Heroic Dungeon bosses as well.

So, while there may or may not be abilities that can effectively 2-shot a tank, avoidance remains largely irrelevant with respect to what abilities these bosses do use. If this is true, then avoidance really only holds potential benefit in cases of multi-mob trash; and even then, as we found earlier, this isn't even an absolute or consistent benefit.

So again I'll ask, how is avoidance necessarily "king" while EH is necessarily "dead"?

Thank you Victoriaaz for answering the questions in the OP. I'm curious to know why there's such a disparity with Druid tanks, based on your experience. Is this mainly with regard to trash groups, or bosses, or both?
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