Weren't we supposed to do MORE damage at 85?

90 Night Elf Druid
Posted by Farabee
Was kind of wondering this myself.

I've seen maybe 2 people break 10k thus far doing heroics, and my guild is full of Light Of Dawns (I quit before that happened, sadly).

So healers are doing less, DPS are doing less, tanks are getting wrecked unless we're using CC. It's kind of like going back to vanilla.

What do you expect? Run in and AOE every heroic and raid content?

Good for blizzard for pulling back the damage, pvp will be less about blowing someone due to a synergy between classes and more about a continued focus where every mistake adds up.

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85 Human Mage
If the fight doesn't require me to stop dps on the boss (which there aren't very many) I can easily pull 14-15k dps, and if I'm under 10k on any boss I'm rather disappointed with myself.

Though, sometimes, the RNG gods decide to shat on me, and I can go 15-20 fireballs with no crits, true story.
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85 Undead Warlock
Posted by Prinzesa
You're comparing results from the last tier of gear of an expansion where the devs admitted that everything went up too high, against the first tier of gear of an expansion intended to rein it all back in.

You're not going to like the answer, but "Gear progression will fix it"

THIS! Aside from the mana issues, why does it matter if our numbers are smaller? If everyone is doing less damage, then the game is probably better off.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
Cause your spec is based on crit damage.

Honestly, how do you not know that?
Likewise, melee is going to improve alot more than caster classes. Wonder why you were OP before Cata?
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85 Worgen Hunter
I remember when I went into VoA in the first week after hitting 80, I pulled about 4k in all blues. Mind you, this was as BM, which at that point scaled with raid buffs very well and was later nerfed.

4k isn't that much more than I was pulling in BiS gear in Sunwell before Wrath. So yeah, it's just like the people in this thread are saying: 277 at 80 > 346 at 85. Why is that hard to understand? Your SP/AP may have increased, but your haste and crit are much lower. Melee classes lost the benefit of Arp and had to be rebalanced without it.
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85 Tauren Druid
Posted by Middboss
pst, all specs are doing less damage at 85 than at 80

seems backwards and doesnt make much sense, but it is true.

*Most. Not all.
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85 Undead Death Knight
Posted by Stupefy

I didn't know that! Thanks Mr. Obvious.

t10 at lvl 80 is better than lvl blues at 85.

Then how are other specs seeing an improvement in DPS compared to what they did at 80? T10 at lvl 80 is NOT better than blues at 85. I have over 2000 more spellpower, my spells hit far, far harder. But the clunky mechanics of the Fire spec are rendering that "damage boost" essentially useless, instead going backwards in actual damage done.[/quote]

He's not compairing the stats of the gear. He's saying that the stats on T10 give a lvl 80 bigger numbers (is crit/haste) then lvl 85 blues give a lvl 85. It's the stats you see in the very very very last tier of an xpac vs the stuff you see at the very start of an x-pac. Noone came out of heroics at lvl 80 with 45% crit....

Yes fire is retarted that it's based around rng that you need (and can't get currently) from gear. It ahs no real ability to boost it's own crit so that it can function properly.

But if you know it's crazy crit dependent (and blizz knows that too I"m sure. having created it and all) and you KNOW that you will have crap for crit at 85 in heroic gear....then why are you still fire? You KNOW it doesn't have the gear to make the spec function properly?

It's stupid that a spec is that gear dependent. But that's the way Blizz wants it for whatever moronic reason they have. In T13 it'll prolly be THE spec of choice...
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85 Blood Elf Mage
But what about the suggestion of normalizing crit via a talent/glyph?
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I've gotten into mostly 346 Heroic dungeon gear and finally am able to match the numbers I was hitting in 277 with Shadowmourne.

I imagine in T11 Raid gear I'll be surpassing those numbers, by the time I get to T12 our numbers will be quite high.

Funny how gear resets work isn't it?
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85 Orc Hunter
Posted by Apsa
Sounds like fire scales off crit.

The sky is blue.

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85 Goblin Warrior
You can pretend all of the numbers are twice as large as they are, if you want. Doesn't really make a difference. The point of a new expansion is to NERF the CRAP out of EVERYBODY so you don't go around 2-shotting everything in greens.

Wrath of the Noobjacket gave people this illusion that they should somehow be blowing things up from day 1. Hell I didn't replace a single piece of Sunwell gear on the way up, the mobs had ~12k health at level 80 and I was practically 1-shotting stuff with a Chaos Bolt crit. That was the worst period in this game's history. It started off enjoyable to farm up the mats you needed for whatever you wanted to craft in no-time flat, and clear all the raid instances quickly and maximise everyone's gear income, but it soon became apparent that not being challenged made the whole experience woefully boring and a complete waste of time.

Now I actually have to work for a single creature kill, and manage my health and mana appropriately so I can grind at maximum efficiency. That's a fun game to play. Sitting around waiting on respawns, spending more time worrying about tagging things, because there's 4 people at the same spot, 1-shotting everything that pops up, is not fun at all.

The way both PvE and PvP are set up right now...I have never had so much fun. PvP has a great pace at this gear level (hopefully healers get a boost in the balance of power with more resilience) and accomplishing daily quests (specifically the ones in tol barad - which have some of the most dangerous spawn zones I've ever seen), heroics and raids feels rewarding and enjoyable because its not a godamned walkover that any monkey with 15 minutes of free time could accomplish.
Edited by Bibdi on 12/15/2010 10:51 AM PST
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85 Human Warrior
I know it's hard to believe, OP, but could it be possible that other players are better than you?

I've seen a pretty good correlation between players who sucked in Wraith continuing to suck in Cata, expect on a much larger scale.

I don't know how fire is, but I can speak for Fury, the rotation go a tiny bit more complex. I know arcane was literally, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2. Not hard, perhaps fire has a different one.

The point is: combat rating are low now, so comparing your dps fully epiced out at level 80 is dumb. Because no 2 factors are the same; however, if you compared fully epiced at 85 to fully epiced at 80, you should see an increase. Bad players might not.

It's like comparing a 12 year old to a 25 year old. It doesn't quite work like that, since not all factors are equal.

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The problem isn't that gear is resetting, it's that folks (myself included) don't feel like they're getting any more powerful as they level. It feels like, with every level gained, my character is becoming weaker. What's the point of leveling a character?

Compounding this is that some classes/specs are hit harder by this than others, which in turn makes some folks feel like they're doing something wrong. And they may actually be doing something wrong, particularly if their class/spec went through a major revamp. Or, their class may scale poorly at the beginning of a gear reset, and no matter what they do, they may simply not be able to match the performance of classes with a different curve.

Now, those of us who were around for previous expansions have been through this before.

For Mages, I call this the "Awkward Phase". We're so incredibly dependent upon certain stats (Hit, Crit, Haste) that until we reach a certain gear level with regards to those stats, we *suck*. We get out-DPS'd by everyone in comparable gear. It feels horrible. (And coming from a very high position at the end of Wrath, it's amplified this time around)

Then we get a bit higher on the gear ladder. Suddenly, we're pulling even. This is about the time we're seeing gear with enough Hit that we're not forced to gem/enchant (or now, reforge) Hit in order to achieve the cap. Crit/Haste goes up as a result, and so does our DPS. (Particularly Fire, which is so dependent upon Crit as to be crippled without enough of it)

We're *very* early into Cataclysm right now (It's been...a week and a half?), and most of us haven't hit that point on the curve yet - so it sucks. But, history tells us this gets better. So buck up, practice your sheeping, and take your licks - eventually the gear will get there, and you'll perform up to par again.
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27 Undead Rogue
Posted by Stupefy
At level 80, I used to pull anywhere between 12-14k DPS on non-ICC-buff encounters as Fire.

After reaching 85, I'd be lucky to pull even 9k.

The entire Fire spec is designed around critting (more than ANY other spec in the game) so much, 20% crit rates have flat-out broken the spec. There are hardly any ignites rolling, Living Bomb is our only DoT (our Mastery increases DoT damage rofl), Combustion is frustrating, there are no mana returns, the list goes on and on.

Now, I know that Fire will gain huge strength as the expansion goes by and crit rates increase. But is that really intended? Warriors were extremely gear dependant and you addressed with rage normalization. How did you address Fire's ridiculous thirst for crit? Mages who are leveling as fire also feel the same way, the crits just don't happen often enough.

I would be completely fine with this if we had another spec to jump to. Sadly, Fire is still ahead of Arcane and Frost.

Since we're trying to be constructive here, I suggest a solution following a simple guideline: The longer you go without critting, the more likely crits will become. A bit like the old combustion, but it's always in effect.

E.g. Each time you cast Fireball and it doesn't crit, the critical strike chance of the next Fireball increases by X%. Stacks up to X times. When you finally do crit with Fireball, you lose 1 stack. Values can be played with, but you get the idea.

This can be a talent of glyph, or could simply be tied into something that Fireball always does. This talent/glyph/whatever will degrade in value as the Mage's gear gets better, which is exactly the point - To normalize the crit rates between endgame gear and starting gear.

Are you daft? Do you realize just how much combat ratings and stats went down?
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85 Orc Warrior
I'm not really sure how the answer isn't like, glaringly obvious. You're doing less DPS because you're a fresh 85. Get heroic gear, and you'll start doing more DPS than you did at 80. I am.
I did around 10k without the ICC buff WITH the ridiculous warrior nerfs pre cata, and now I do about 14k on average per boss fight.
Pretty legit to me.
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85 Undead Hunter
Posted by Stupefy

Weren't we supposed to do MORE damage at 85?

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