Holy - Raiding is just fine, no mana problems

85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
Just downed Wyrmbreaker and Val/Ther in BoT last night. My current spec was what I was running.

I don't see why there is so much "ToR is not worth the 3 points anymore", Tower of Radiance was invaluable in the fights. I still spammed Holy Light on the tank, even though it doesn't generate holy power anymore, and used Divine Light when big heals were needed. WoG/LoD were primarily used to help the raid heals out, but I was no longer concerned about quickly generating holy power.

I think the reason why the holy paladin community is in such an outrage is because they were used to HL HL HL LoD HL HL HL LoD. They claimed it was nice to see some interactivity in the paladin class without just spamming one spell... that was far from the truth.

The current set up forces paladins to use Holy Light only as a topper off (as it was designed for, right?). I'm sad that it no longer procs ToR, however I reworked my healing rotation/priorities and it worked out just fine.
Divine Light is situational due to it's high mana cost, but this should still be the heal you use when your tank is taking damage. With a spell power of 6500 my DLs were criting for 41k, that seems worth the 7k mana. ToR definately makes me more inclined use this spell.
I used Flash of Light very rarely, only when I knew I could afford to use that mana, either I was still over 80% mana halfway through the fight, or I knew there would be a 10-15 sec breather to pop Divine Plea.
I mostly used Holy Shock on the rest of the raid, the gcd was too time consuming for the amount it heals to be used when the tank was taking a lot of damage. I caused a couple of wipes on Wyrmbreaker because of using Holy Shock rather than begin casting DL and the tank dying.
I didn't use LoD at all last night, I was afraid the nerf was going to cost us the fights. I saved my WoG for when the other healer(s) was taking a lot of damage. I noticed I used 2 hp WoG more often than three. The third hp generated takes as much time as both of the first two hp combined, I figure.

I still think Divine Plea should lose the healing cut. I don't even run glyph of Divine Plea anymore because of how rare I use it.

Although it could have been announced to save my initial frustration, Thank You Blizzard for making this change, I feel like I'm actually playing my class now rather than just 2 2 2 5 2 2 2 5.
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85 Human Paladin
9910
Like anything in this game, when something comes along that makes it more difficult, people scream nerf. Then when their class is nerfed, they scream buff. I personally like the direction its going and obviously no class/spec is perfect although some are overpowered and some are underpowered, thats just the way it is. I play mainspec ret and get just fine dps on heroic bosses, 12-13k; Holy is still just fine for me, no more casting unnecessary heals.

All I can say is that people just need to learn to play with whatever changes there are and stop complaining about it.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
Ideally, a healer should be at or below 10% mana when a raid boss dies. In fact, that should be the same for heroic bosses for players who are not yet raiding for raiding.

You make 42g per random heroic. If you cannot afford a full stack of water to cover each heroic, there is something wrong happening...

Holy is still just fine for me, no more casting unnecessary heals.


Exactly. I had over 50% of the raid's Overhealing Done (34% of my own heals were Overhealing) on nights prior to last. Although, Blizzard did state they wanted healers to have an auto attack, which happens to be Holy Light for us paladins.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Posted by Jondoe
Just downed Wyrmbreaker and Val/Ther in BoT last night. My current spec was what I was running.



I don't see why there is so much "ToR is not worth the 3 points anymore", Tower of Radiance was invaluable in the fights. I still spammed Holy Light on the tank, even though it doesn't generate holy power anymore, and used Divine Light when big heals were needed. WoG/LoD were primarily used to help the raid heals out, but I was no longer concerned about quickly generating holy power.



I think the reason why the holy paladin community is in such an outrage is because they were used to HL HL HL LoD HL HL HL LoD. They claimed it was nice to see some interactivity in the paladin class without just spamming one spell... that was far from the truth.



The current set up forces paladins to use Holy Light only as a topper off (as it was designed for, right?). I'm sad that it no longer procs ToR, however I reworked my healing rotation/priorities and it worked out just fine.

Divine Light is situational due to it's high mana cost, but this should still be the heal you use when your tank is taking damage. With a spell power of 6500 my DLs were criting for 41k, that seems worth the 7k mana. ToR definately makes me more inclined use this spell.

I used Flash of Light very rarely, only when I knew I could afford to use that mana, either I was still over 80% mana halfway through the fight, or I knew there would be a 10-15 sec breather to pop Divine Plea.

I mostly used Holy Shock on the rest of the raid, the gcd was too time consuming for the amount it heals to be used when the tank was taking a lot of damage. I caused a couple of wipes on Wyrmbreaker because of using Holy Shock rather than begin casting DL and the tank dying.

I didn't use LoD at all last night, I was afraid the nerf was going to cost us the fights. I saved my WoG for when the other healer(s) was taking a lot of damage. I noticed I used 2 hp WoG more often than three. The third hp generated takes as much time as both of the first two hp combined, I figure.



I still think Divine Plea should lose the healing cut. I don't even run glyph of Divine Plea anymore because of how rare I use it.



Although it could have been announced to save my initial frustration, Thank You Blizzard for making this change, I feel like I'm actually playing my class now rather than just 2 2 2 5 2 2 2 5.


Thanks for the info. I notice in your spec that you have Blessed Life. Were you getting hit enough and was it helping you generate enough Holy Power to make this worth the 2 talent points you put into it? Thanks.
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62 Human Paladin
0
Posted by Jondoe
Ideally, a healer should be at or below 10% mana when a raid boss dies. In fact, that should be the same for heroic bosses for players who are not yet raiding for raiding.



Wrong. Ideally, if you have great DPS, you should finish a boss fight with leftover mana.
If you have decent / DPS with common sense, you should finish a boss fight almost OOM
If you have tard DPS, you shouldn't down a boss.

In conclusion, the amount of mana you should have left at the end of a fight should depend on your DPS.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
Thanks for the info. I notice in your spec that you have Blessed Life. Were you getting hit enough and was it helping you generate enough Holy Power to make this worth the 2 talent points you put into it? Thanks.




Actually, I think Blessed Life is bugged right now. Hostile debuffs proc Blessed Life.

Allow me to give a few examples, these are the four bosses (plus pvp) I have downed so far.



Omnitron Council - Plenty of debuffs, Magmatron does an AoE fire attack that will proc it.

Magmaw - Lots and lots of aoe fire damage.

Halfus Wyrmbreaker - Again, there is quite a bit of AoE from the proto-drake's breath.

Valiona and Theralion - Val phase has those shadow meteors that hit for 22k. Theralion phase has the large meteors that spread damage to all people hit.

Conclave of Wind - On Na-zir's (name is censored due to first four letters, so I hyphenated it lol) and Rohash's platforms there is a lot of AoE damage/debuffs. Anshal (sp?) is the only boss in the encounter that won't proc Blessed Life unless an add takes a whack at me.

Algalon (Baradin Hold) - Every 15-20 seconds you will be hit by Meteor Slash.
Edited by Jondoe on 12/15/2010 11:10 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
1880
I havent done any of the new raid content yet so I cant really speak on that, and I have mainly been pugging heroics and have yet to get to completion. Most have been issues with people just not being able to manage the fight mechanics and lack of voice chat with the pugs to make things smoother.

That being said, when I saw the outrage over this "nerf" I was a little curious, as it was a healing style that I hadnt adopted that had been impacted the most. Being mainly in 5 man content, its pretty hard to get LoD used optimally, so I tend to use it more on WoG.

Granted, I havent been a healing pally since BC days, and my first Cata instance healed was a Heroic that I didnt pay attention to when getting in LFD, and didnt even realize it was heroic until the first loot drop.

Typically on normals the rest of the party has to do something very stupid (Stand in aoe's, not interrupt) to cause me to ever dip below 80% mana. Most boss fights I end up at 90% to 100% mana left. Im not epeening here, but a lot of these paladins complaining right now are sticking to their guns on the hold habbits, or not adapting to the new gear change priorties (Getting your spirit up for mana regen, using judge on cooldown, poor spec choices ect).

The night before the nerf that stole christmas, I had commented to my guild how much I liked the new changes, and that I even thought a nerf would be incomming because I had bottomless mana (I can actually gain mana if all I do is cast HL and Judge with Shocks/WoG thrown in). The change to the HP generation from HL on the Beacon changed that a little, so that now I tend to not gain as easily in "conservation" mode healing. It was needed is what im trying to get at.

Will this all change when I start raiding? Perhaps. Its the hardest this new content will be right now until everyone gets their gear, and a better understanding of the changes (This goes for Tanks, DPS and Healers). As people round out their new skills, gear, ect it will become far easier to run this stuff, its already been happening for my guild and others I run instances with.

I agree with the OP on a lot of things, and I have been trying to learn a lot of the new healing on my own as there isnt a lot of solid information out there to guide those right now taking on the new changes. I have actually had 3 guilds ask me from pug groups to speak in their vents on what I am doing because their paladins are ready to quit (One was even ready to boot me from the dungeon if the first pull went bad because they were lead to believe paladin healing was broken and I would be a liability).

TL:DR - Get your mana regen up. Stop spamming the big heals. Fix your spec. Judge/Shock on CD. Heal smarter with your healing toolkit. Get the people taking senseless damage to get out of the ground damage/interrupt spells/CC when needed.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6875
12/15/2010 10:19 AMPosted by Jondoe
Just downed Wyrmbreaker and Val/Ther in BoT last night.


Don't suppose you'll post the logs from your raid?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/60247/

There ya go. Our Val and Ther kill was terribly executed, but a kill's a kill. Next week we'll be less messy. We also fraps every kill, however those videos won't be available for some time.
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85 Draenei Paladin
2940
I'm not crying nerf or anything of the sort but I am getting frustrated. Just did like 13 attempts at ripsnarl. the longest one was 5minutes 10 seconds and he was still at 23%. Jondoe, you mention not to use FoL too much, but then what to use? the damage people are taking is too fast for HL and too much for the WoG/HS combo to heal. DL is so costly to use too much. I started meleeing the boss just for mana regen. I've come to a wall I'm not sure how to get through.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
Ripsnarl is not a heal check. It's a dps check. The dps HAVE to kill the vapors asap. If the dps are doing what they need to be doing, the only aoe damage is the occassional cone of cold that hits for maybe 6k to everyone.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
Bumping in hopes to end the "OMG BLIZZARD BROKED HOLY!!!!!!" lol
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85 Tauren Paladin
2410
i tried halfus wyrmbreaker 2 days ago in 10man, with 3 healers, and even with that, the aoe damage for the fight seemed insane. Not sure if we were doing everything right, but freeing the stormrider so we can interupt the shadow novas, and still the entire raid taking 30k damage hits from the proto drake every few seconds, the MT taking tons of damage from halfus who had frenzy going... Even 3 healers using aoe heals, people were dying so fast. idk, guess everyone needs better gear still.

how did you find it in 10m though?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
It took us several attempts to figure out the best strategy to take down Halfus.
In the end we decided to kill Stormrider first, I was main heals on Stormrider's tank (I really only used Divine Light, had to LoH near the death of the drake to restore just enough mana). The other two healers covered raid and main tank (frenzy... ugh...).
Then we released Nether Scion, the entire fight became a whole lot easier. In fact, I began to restore more mana than used and we started the emerald whelpings with me at over 50% mana.

The entire fight I was running Resistance Aura to cut 25% of the fire damage from the proto-drake. The other healers commented that the fight was really hard to heal until Stormrider was dead and Nether Scion was released.

EDIT: Replaced "hurr durr frenzy drake" with proper name, Nether Scion. :)
Edited by Jondoe on 12/15/2010 9:48 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
A little update, we just killed Magmaw.
The lowest my mana got in that fight was 20% before the first chain phase. After that the chain phases came so frequently I didn't drop below 50% mana and often was at 100% when the worm recovered from the impale.
The holy priest and resto druid were in the same boat as me, no mana problems at all in that fight.
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85 Tauren Paladin
2410
12/15/2010 9:42 PMPosted by Jondoe
It took us several attempts to figure out the best strategy to take down Halfus.
In the end we decided to kill Stormrider first, I was main heals on Stormrider's tank (I really only used Divine Light, had to LoH near the death of the drake to restore just enough mana). The other two healers covered raid and main tank (frenzy... ugh...).
Then we released Nether Scion, the entire fight became a whole lot easier. In fact, I began to restore more mana than used and we started the emerald whelpings with me at over 50% mana.

The entire fight I was running Resistance Aura to cut 25% of the fire damage from the proto-drake. The other healers commented that the fight was really hard to heal until Stormrider was dead and Nether Scion was released.

EDIT: Replaced "hurr durr frenzy drake" with proper name, Nether Scion. :)


i guess our dps needs to get better gear then. by the time stormrider was on 20% hp, all the healers were nearly oom, and everyone was still taking tons of damage. I think running 2 healers might work better, as with only 5 dps we had to have 1 stay on halfus to interupt the shadownovas, so 4 dps, stormrider just wasnt dying fast enough.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
If the majority of your guild isn't in 333/346 (preferably 346), then you aren't ready to be raiding. I was actually just telling a friend this since his guild's top dps is 9.8k :x
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85 Dwarf Paladin
2795
So your healing rotation is what....hl, hl, hl, dl, hl, dl or however needed with wogs built up from the dls? No shocks on tank or? And when LoD was used it was to assist other healers essentially?

Try to be more specific for those of us just noticing the change and trying to figure it out, your response seemed rather generic.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
Sorry Sassymcgee, it's all situational to me and I heal on a whim.

If the tank is 75% health or above, I generall HL->HS. That heals almost as much as DL at half the mana cost. If the tank is below, I throw out a DL->HS. I don't use LoD much at all (I did find it rather useful on Magmaw since we were all stacked most of the fight). I'll WoG the tank if no one else in the raid needs heals, otherwise I toss it to a dps/healer.

Again, it's all situational. I can probably do a fraps of a raid boss and you can see how I do it, that's the best I can offer.

Also, Speed of Light talent is absolutely amazing for the speed boost.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
2795
Thank you for trying to create a better picture, trust me I didnt expect a 'rotation' as my post seemed to indicate.

When hs is on cd, do you feel as if you try to(or feel as if you must) use a small holy power cd to maintain the tank, or do you just queue up another hl/dl? I'm interested in this part mostly, as even in the small portion of experience i had in heroics today as holy, I felt compelled to use fol instead, but this was with me thinking it was the way to go over divine light. I always avoided divine light prepatch, so if its the answer then perhaps I'll try to get experienced with it.
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