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people brought them over ferals because you dont automatically lose by putting your back against the wall. ferals also were burdened by having the clunkiest pvp mechanics in the game. using instant cast cyclone also effectively CCed the feral for half the duration of cyclone.
in wotlk, what ferals needed was a way to proc PS in bear form and to lessen SR affect on ferals pvp damage.
mortal strike didnt even make it on the list.
Edited by Middboss on 12/19/2010 9:17 AM PST
I wonder if the OP realizes that feral had almost everything he mentioned in his post before Cataclysm, and nobody ever said they were overpowered then.
Right, because it's not like the lack of MS could have been compensated by teaming up with an Arms warrior or MM hunter who were both extremely powerful for the vast majority of WotLK. The interrupt is slightly more problematic, but they could've done without.
If ferals are powerful now, it's because of their mobility and their damage more than anything else. Their survivability is not extremely impressive, nor is their capacity for CC. Any laundry list of "OMG LOOK AT ALL THE STUFF THIS CLASS/SPEC HAS" is completely irrelevant. You can make a long list of cool stuff for anybody and argue that it makes them overpowered, but the truth is that only 1 or 2 of those things is what makes a class stand out above the rest, and everything else is just icing on the cake.
But I digress. I haven't done any 85 PvP (because I didn't have ample time to level any of my toons until finals were over) so I can't really make an assessment on whether or not feral is truly overpowered. My point was, if you're going to make "oh em gee, nerf these guiz" thread, then at least make sure you're being reasonable about what it really is that makes them so strong, and not just listing all their abilities and making blizzard think that Survival Instincts is what makes feral OP.
and you are very mistaken if you think -50% heals wasn't the BIGGEST reason rogue/warrior > feral.
Wrong...you're talking out your ass here. In WotLK, the biggest reason ferals weren't prevalent was probably their ramp up. Obviously the savage roar change remedied that a great deal.
Edited by Malatia on 12/19/2010 9:26 AM PST
WotlK = the past. Leave the past in the past, things have changed. This is a completely different game with completely different dynamics. Your argument that ferals were weak in wrath therefore cannot be OP in cata is ridiculous and useless... its like getting stopped by a cop telling you you were 40 mph over the limit and answering ''but officer, i couldnt be, when i left home i was barely going 30 mph!''
Yes, ferals right now are broken. With the way hp pools work now you cant blow them up before they break form, and you cannot touch them when they do go bear. On top of that they hit harder then most other classes, are virtually un-CCable, are literally un-peelable, have undispellable dots and just happen to have the survivability of a tank on top of an interrupt.
Sorry, but no, this is not balanced.
1 Orc Shaman
I wish people would stop with these idiotic laundry list type of nerf QQ posts. You can do that with any class and make them look OP.
The only thing Feral actually got in Cata was a kick (Stampeding Roar is so terrible I won't even mention it). They have always had the mobility and survivability. The only thing making them OP is the bleed damage. Nerf that, not all of this other crap.
You and I seem to be on the same page :P
85 Blood Elf Hunter
Ugg people who use the "They had all this before cata," argument are just idiotic.
Scaling on all abilities changed for everyone. Abilities are not the same as there were before 4.0. Feral got a few new abilities, a few slightly mechanics and a severely changed the damage curve, at this gear level.
Even if feral is not OP you are still morons for using that argument.
...can break any snare and root any time it wants?
Can't shift out of daze effects or area effects like Frost Trap; Warriors can teleport out of them though.
...can shield wall twice?
I can Shield Wall ONCE every 3 minutes. Frenzied Regeneration does not reduce incoming damage at all, and Bear form is terrible at absorbing magic-based damage since they nerfed that back in TBC.
I'd rather have Divine Shield, honestly. It seems much better overall.
Yeah, got me there. Druids have stealth. Grats on getting one right!
...can stun three different ways and interrupt?
Kind of like Warriors or Rogues? Feral Druid control is laughable, and using Maim dramatically lowers Druid DPS because Rip is nearly 40% of their DPS by itself. Spending CP on Maim instead of Rip means that Druid isn't pressuring you anymore.
Oh, and a Druid is never going to Vanish > Cheap Shot you in the middle of the fight.
...can always run at +45% speed?
Ferals have one gap closer on a long cooldown. They way they stay in range is by running to the target. A snare such as Frost Trap, Desecration, or SEAL OF JUSTICE still counters this.
...can instantly close distance twice?
Once. Feral Charge cat and bear are on shared cooldowns. Using one puts the other on whatever its normal cooldown is. Go do some research.
...has most of its damage ignore all armor and resistances?
I'm not understanding you here. Casters put on the PvP cloak and ignore all resistances. Warriors can Colossus Smash and ignore all armor while they burst someone down.
...can make itself immune to fear for 15 seconds?
Paladins can make themselves immune to Fear for 8 seconds! Warriors can do the same for 10 seconds every 30! Priests can absorb a Fear once every 3 minutes! Death Knights can become immune to fear for 10 seconds! Shaman can break fear repeatedly with a no-cooldown totem! Druids can become immune to fear for 15 seconds every 3 minutes!
Fear sucks. Thanks for twisting that knife in every Priest out there.
...can instantly CC somebody 20 yards away for 6 seconds?
You mean Repentance? No that's Paladins. Blind? No that's Rogues. Hungering Cold? No that only has a 10 yard range but hits everything nearby, and it belongs to DKs.
Oh you must mean using a Predatory Strikes proc to cast a Cyclone! Yeah, that's not exactly "on demand", now is it?
...has a 10 second snare that can only be removed by two classes that is automatically applied on each attack?
It's applied on Mangle, Ravage, Maul, and Shred. It's a snare that can be cleansed. I know that Paladins don't have a snare, but you may want to go look at the list of melee classes who do. Pointing out that Feral Druids have a snare is kinda like saying "most birds fly".
You call them a Feral Druid.
Feral Druids are too good right now. They are the new Ret Paladins (don't bother pointing out the irony of a Ret Paladin saying this, I play many different classes) in the sense that they can do everything. They have no weaknesses - casters can't CC them and melee can't burn through their Bear Form or get away from them.
Man, that Warlock who Fear-spammed me the other day after my Berserk was down sure CC'ed the heck out of me, it seems.
Oh, and a Mage caught me in caster form trying to Cyclone a Warrior to save a Priest. I had to eat a 10-second Polymorph.
And that Warrior who Colossus Smashed me sure didn't have any problems burning through my Bear Form's remaining 70k HP in the span of a Throwdown -- and that was with Barkskin up.
Your suggestions are comical.
If Shred/Ferocious Bite damage was increased to offset bleed damage but PvE DPS was retained there would be an endless stream of tears from cloth casters getting eaten alive by YET ANOTHER bursty melee class. Did you even consider that? Bleeds come in at a slow rate, dealing ~15k damage every 3 seconds if BOTH Rip and Rake CRIT. That allows the Druid to generate pressure if he spends his CP to keep a 5CP Rip constantly on the target. Do you want to move Druids from being a pressure-oriented DPS to a burst DPS class?
The 45% run speed bonus (it's actually not 45%, but I'm not getting into math here with you) gives Druids the up-time they need to apply pressure to a target. Given that they have ONE gap closer on a long cooldown and actually cannot shift out of all snares, the run speed enhancers let them stay on target to actually do damage.
I'm not even going to touch your other suggestions. They are just whining.
except, right now, the past is all we have to unbiasedly judge ferals. there is no statistical data at this point to use other than 2v2. which just leaves opinions and extreme exaggerations. not to mention that this song and dance has happened to feral every expansion.
here is what is going to happen. blizzard is going to kneejerk nerf ferals to an extreme, gut them in pve and pvp, and then immediately hotfix them so that they are passable in pve while leaving the spec to rot in pvp for the entire expansion. again.
these forums will always ensure that feral will never get an opportunity to be viable in pvp. hell, 95%+ of the people on these forums are completely ignorant of feral mechanics because they never had to learn how to fight one.
ferals scale terribly with brackets, and do very well in 1v1 (this has held true for at least 4 years), and this will not change without completely remaking the spec from the ground up. i highly doubt if feral will ever be viable in 5's under any circumstances. 3's they at least have a shot at.
ferals were overpowered in 1v1 in wotlk even, yet were a joke in arenas. ferals were literally THE best 1v1/duel/world pvp spec in wotlk (and even in BC)
Edited by Middboss on 12/19/2010 9:53 AM PST
...can instantly CC somebody 20 yards away for 6 seconds?
Oh and it can also be dispelled. If a lock is using a fel hunter, it is a very annoying fight.
It makes it a 7 second blanket silence. Pop it on a healer and you have a good shot at a kill. 2nd longest interrupt in the game and the longest silence.
I would argue warriors are twice as bad as mages. (twice as bad meaning twice as good)
Edited by Chillbill on 12/19/2010 10:42 AM PST
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