Ret is Fun and Powerful once you get gear.

85 Blood Elf Paladin
8135
It has it's problems as a spec, but the rotation isn't one of them. Hand of Light feels weak because TV hits a little weak and could certainly be buffed a few percentage points. Ret does adequate sustained DPS when geared (15-16k), though isn't comparable to classes with clearly broken gear scaling like Death Knights (18-20k).

What Ret DOES do well is actually play like a real hybrid, with powerful support or self healing and other support skills that can make a huge impact, especially in 5 and 10 man content.

I urge anyone that's struggling with Ret to play the class like a support hybrid rather than some DPS number outputting machine. So what if you might only pull 12-13k in a fight, but you allow your raid to do a 3 healer fight with only 2 healers? You're still contributing an enormous amount of effective DPS to a raid when playing in that manner.
Edited by Ashwynn on 12/19/2010 9:33 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4375
Much rather play the spec in an offensive manner, and let holy do the healing. If there comes a moment when only my healing can save the group, then i'll do it, but we have serious problems then.

You may like the support 1st dps 2nd style ret currently has, and rly more power to you for making the best of a bad situation, but most every pld that went ret went for offense, with a hint of support. To play down our dps in favor of support is wrong. Not that you shouldn't be allowed to play in that manner, but ppl who want to do competitive dps with everyone else and compete for the top spots should be able to do so.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
Yeah, playing like a hybrid is a one-way ticket to nowheresville. Vanilla and BC proved that pretty decisively.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8135
There's nothing stopping you from doing mid-range (15-16k) DPS with the same gear and spec. That puts you even with most classes. You can be a hybrid without actually sacrificing any DPS talents. You have the flexibility to alter your playstyle in the middle of an encounter, and that's awesome.

Stop comparing your DPS to classes that are clearly broken like DKs and possibly warlocks.
Edited by Ashwynn on 12/19/2010 10:03 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4375
There's nothing stopping you from doing mid-range DPS with the same gear and spec


Define mid range, because if that means i work as hard if not harder to dps as anyone else in my raid and i end up middle of the pack, then something is wrong, and that needs to be fixed.

Now, if things aren't borked and i'm maybe 500-1000 dps behind #1, and THAT puts me at 7th-8th dps, i can live with that, because that's pretty well balanced and a simple tick or mechanic issue was the difference. But we don't know what's currently acceptable dps for encounters and who's too high.

So i am to set my standards higher
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6335
If you think the problem is about the numbers, then I'd put forth that you don't understand the problem.

Also, you talk about hybrid support as if Paladins are the only class capable of doing so.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4375
12/19/2010 10:09 PMPosted by Linghuchong
If you think the problem is about the numbers, then I'd put forth that you don't understand the problem.

Also, you talk about hybrid support as if Paladins are the only class capable of doing so.


I know what the problems are, and from what i understand dmg isn't one of them, but the OP made it sound like ret was OK as a support over dps style spec. Just arguing against that.

Mechanics are what need the real overhaul here, so i'm not sure the real point of the OP anyway
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
12/19/2010 10:01 PMPosted by Ashwynn
There's nothing stopping you from doing mid-range (15-16k) DPS with the same gear and spec. That puts you even with most classes. You can be a hybrid without actually sacrificing any DPS talents. You have the flexibility to alter your playstyle in the middle of an encounter, and that's awesome.

Stop comparing your DPS to classes that are clearly broken like DKs and possibly warlocks.


Really? Cause I guarantee you my RL is making those comparisons...along with mages, ferals, arms, survival... He'd be a crap RL if he wasn't.

A great ret paladin should be able to challenge for the number 1 spot, as with any dps class. When more raid data is in, we'll know if that is the case. Right now all we really have are anecdotes.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6335
12/19/2010 10:23 PMPosted by Jenseits
If you think the problem is about the numbers, then I'd put forth that you don't understand the problem.

Also, you talk about hybrid support as if Paladins are the only class capable of doing so.


I know what the problems are, and from what i understand dmg isn't one of them, but the OP made it sound like ret was OK as a support over dps style spec. Just arguing against that.

Mechanics are what need the real overhaul here, so i'm not sure the real point of the OP anyway


why are you quoting me?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9015
If you really want the feel of how ret was before, level an enhancement shaman. They dumbed it down a lot and made it so it's pretty much exactly like how ret was before 4.0. That and it's doing about 1.5k more than ret is right now.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
8435
Been to support land. Done the support thing. Ya know what? Even now its still a lot like playing a bad holy paladin. I struggle to see how this play style will lend itself to either fun or high level PvP, either in arenas or in rated BGs.

Its just not a great situation to be in. Even if we A) Get hand of light, B) Have full holy power, C) Trigger Eternal Glory, and D) crit all 3 times, you wont heal an ally to full most of the time, certainly not if they have any kind of healing debuff on them. And thats your best case scenario and you blew 3 globals to do it in. If you run in ret gear, using real heals means you have no mana for anything else AND you heal for crap AND you risk locking out your entire combat bar. If you run in spell power gear....why are you not playing holy?

The problem is the same on the support side of things. Ret is only as good as other players allow it to be, and we bring nothing that a holy paladin would not do just as well if not better. On top of that, now you have to divide your attention between a horribly RNG ridden combat system with no reliable way to generate HP at range and keeping your allies alive and working. Sorry, but your enjoyment of that playstyle is not going to make it a viable choice, or a fun one. It might work in random BGs, but once people start paying attention, your going to get focused, dispelled, and killed. To top it all off, Blizzard specifically stated they wanted to move AWAY from this model and nerfed or removed our best tools for the play style. I cant see how there is much future for this effort.


Edit: It seems the original post was about PvE, so I will add in a bit about that here. Raid leaders don't care if your 8th on the healing list. I learned that the hard way back in vanilla, when I was reliably high on the healing charts thanks to Judgement of Light and middle of the road on dps. If your coming as a DPS, you need to do good DPS. Right now ret is middle of the pack at best, and will have a large number of fights where our numbers will tank because of our long ramp up time and hyper complex and unpredictable combat system. Even if the fight favors you, your spending all your time keeping up. If you spend the time to do anything else, you loose damage. Hell, even when I do everything right I still usually sit at 3rd on the DPS charts. Being a good offhealer will not save you from this. And ret is NOT a good offhealer right now. So its not "Powerful" in any sense of the word.

If you think this is fun, well I suppose you have very odd hobbies. I personally cant stand having to divine my attention 5 different ways, paying attention to cooldowns, procs, inquisition, random HP generation, mana, fight effects, and loosing DPS every time something goes wrong that I cant predict. Its aggravating as hell to see HoL pop up just as that dragon gets airborn or the boss pops spikes for the 5th time. And all this so I can do so-so damage? Bleh. And thats not even taking into ACCOUNT the ways that our combat system trips all over itself with its cooldowns and procs, how we basically exclude the most common stat on plate gear because its horrible for us, and how we basically now have a THIRD stat cap to reach to actually have a chance of cleaning things up a bit (which is so high we basically wont reach it until the second round of tier gear comes out), or how about half of our combat system is bland, uninteresting, and weak filler we only use because it has slight chance to give us holy power. I cant really call it "Fun" either.
Edited by Dstonehand on 12/20/2010 1:32 AM PST
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85 Human Warrior
2790
No its not.

The hybrid theory your thinking of doesnt exist in this game anymore. If a raid or group wants a healer, they bring a heal spec, if they need a dps they bring a dps spec. Trying to toss out heals as ret is not only inefficient and ineffective, but your dps takes a HUGE dive. Selfless healer is a terrible talent for rets. because it encourages a playstyle that just is not supported anymore.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6580
Well, I'm noticing the OP has good gear, and while the utility of our spec (offhealing) is questionable, if she says the damage is good, I'm inclined to believe it.


Nonetheless, we will see buffs to our damage. That much is inevitable. Blizzard has already commented on our mastery, and GoAK is bugged. There's also the issue of the Glyph of Exorcism not scaling properly.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9410
Ret is not fun.

Ret does not have "powerful self healing".

It's damage is fine in a raid setting, it's pitiful PVP and the clunkiness that caused us to ##%!@/respec/reroll.
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85 Human Paladin
4325
I have to respectfully disagree with the OP as to enjoying where rets are at. My main spec is prot, and I love tanking, but I also love ret and doing dps or arena/bgs with it. Since this xpac, Ive left it on the back burner and turned to full prot spec. Finding far more survivability and damage output than in ret. Ret just feels clunky. It was supposed to be less random proc based, and now its HEAVILY proc based.

Of all the classes, to keep our dps up, we must have wings, zealotry and inq up at all times to max our output. And still pay attention to whats going on in the fight. And if you miss something, even for a second, your dps suffers horribly for it. I am glad that we will get buffs, ret needs it pretty bad. I would really like to see us be a viable spec again around the board instead of the "oh crap" situation emergency healers or half tanks that we are now.
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85 Human Paladin
6290
Ret self healing is about as powerful in the long run as rouges, death knights feral druids & warriors.

The problem is we sacrifice anywhere from double to triple the damage for it, this is ok when trying to help an ally survive but having to pay such a huge price for self survivability is bad design in the long run.

The other major problem the spec has is complete reliance on RNG procs that the player cannot control. If it where just 1 proc we could not control that made up a small portion of our damage or a couple procs that were always triggered by specific effects (see arms & fury warriors) then our procs would be ok.

One way they could fix both problems at the same time would be to make holy power generation more consistent for ret. This could be done by making slight changes to sanctity of battle & divine purpose.

For Sanctity of Battle, simply allow it to also lower the cool down on judgment & cause judgments to always create a charge when used.

For Divine Purpose simply change it so that Divine storm & Holy Wrath always create a charge of holy power when striking multiple targets.

AS for Art of War, since it is very rare for ret to have any time on target in pvp & movement based situations it would be best to simply allow any attack we make to have a chance at triggering it then adjust the trigger chance accordingly.

As for the mastery, simply change it into Your special attacks do an additional +X% weapon damage as holy damage over 6 seconds, then tack on a you are healed for Y% of this damage.

After these changes all that is required is a numbers tuning on the mastery. What we would end up with is a much better balanced spec that requires actual skill to play instead of just dumb luck like the current one, because it's fairly obvious at the end of the day the current spec rewards dump luck over any measurable skill.
Edited by Daygon on 12/20/2010 2:45 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
6290
Oh I forgot to mention our specs main attack Templar's Verdict & our very lack luster ability Inquisition

Assuming they were to make the changes I stated above we would not longer need Inquisition in its current form (at least for ret), so why not change it to do something different for each spec similar to how our guardian acts.

For Ret & holy it could increase haste by a set % & for protection it could increase holy damage as it does now. (this would also have the byproduct of making it useful for ret to keep up all the time unlike now where it has shown to be of very little benefit outside of Avenging wrath or when you get a lucky string of art of war procs)

As for Templar's Verdict, as is it feels kind of lack luster as is especially in pvp where armor values on many targets are much higher then they are in pve. So why not have it do XXX% weapon damage as holy, this would make it feel much more attractive for use in pvp because it could actually do decent damage against high armor targets.
This also leads to more choice instead of us just using a self heal every chance we get.
Edited by Daygon on 12/20/2010 2:56 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13855
OP there is no such thing as a true hybrid in this game. You are locked into a role based on your spec and gear. Ret is a DPS spec, if you decide to give up DPS to heal (and you will be giving up a lot of DPS for very ineffectual healing) then the chances are the RL will replace you with someone who will perform the role that the RL wanted you to do.

And ret is looking to have low DPS, the early raid data is putting ret fairly solidly at the bottom in a lot of fights. Although this is early days, and we have to remember that those are the top 20 or 50 results. In an average raid a good ret can out DPS a poor player of another spec. It might be easier for other classes to raid but we don't appear to be in lolret territory yet.

The real issue ret faces is the clunky mechanics. Although fixing SoB to be 3s CS would also up our DPS as we would have fewer empty GCDs.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6335
12/20/2010 11:11 AMPosted by Zamm
In an average raid a good ret can out DPS a poor player of another spec.


Sniped for effect.

Class design has failed when a player is rewarded based on what class they selected at the character creation screen.

I fully expect it will change... but how and when remains to be seen.
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