Anyone else think mastery sucks?

86 Blood Elf Priest
5590
12/19/2010 12:24 PMPosted by Radegund
This makes no sense because based on the current itemization model, the choice wouldn't exist. Items of a certain level have fixed amounts of primary stats (int, stamina) and variable combinations of secondary stats (mastery, spirit, haste, crit). You would not have the opportunity to prioritize int over a secondary stat, and that is by design based on the fact that if you could, nearly everyone would choose the primary stat.

Someone seems to have forgotten about trinkets.
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12/18/2010 10:45 PMPosted by Robölogy
I've only 85'd 2 t00ns, my warrior and this priest. I shadow spec'd during the grind and thought mastery sucked for the minor additional shadow orb damage, but I find it useful for my 2h axe arms Warrior. Now that I'm done grinding for the most part I'm ready to start gearing towards healing again, and I find that mastery still sucks ... at least for Holy Priest. All those mastery points for an extra couple/few percentage points of healing over time? Any other priests feel the same way? I'm thinking stacking crit would be far more effective ... opinions?


No, not at all, I love mastery as holy. It's far more effective than you seem to think. I actually like it more than haste at the moment, due to mana issues. Currently, my choice in stats:

Intellect > Spirit > Mastery > Haste / Crit

As mana becomes less of an issue, Haste will probably become more appealing than it is currently.

Now, as shadow, Mastery is beyond lackluster.
Edited by Sag on 12/19/2010 1:09 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
11215
12/19/2010 11:32 AMPosted by Mahdougie

im a mother ##!#ing MONSTER.

it doesnt matter who i am, my reply is simply because he constantly posts stuff, and the funny part is he doesnt even meet his own criteria nor does he have bosses downed.

imo i'd rather listen to somebody who is in a group that has cleared content.


Hi. Mastery is good. Haste is bad. Check my raid status.

Clinging to haste and avoiding mastery is LK thinking and probably why some people are struggling.

If you have mastery, you get bonus healing for free. Haste lets you cast another spell faster (more healing) but costs more mana. In the current environment free healing trumps more heals.

Mastery vs Crit is an interesting discussion. Haste has no place in this tier.
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85 Gnome Priest
5635
12/19/2010 2:58 PMPosted by Mistiya

im a mother ##!#ing MONSTER.

it doesnt matter who i am, my reply is simply because he constantly posts stuff, and the funny part is he doesnt even meet his own criteria nor does he have bosses downed.

imo i'd rather listen to somebody who is in a group that has cleared content.


Hi. Mastery is good. Haste is bad. Check my raid status.

Clinging to haste and avoiding mastery is LK thinking and probably why some people are struggling.

If you have mastery, you get bonus healing for free. Haste lets you cast another spell faster (more healing) but costs more mana. In the current environment free healing trumps more heals.

Mastery vs Crit is an interesting discussion. Haste has no place in this tier.


Except that haste let's you use a more efficient spell where you would normally use a less efficient one. In a way, haste provides regen by letting you throw weaker heals faster. A hasteless healer will have to resort to inefficient spells sooner.

Also, for specs like Disc mastery is terrible. Shields are such a small percentage of what we do, are weak, and aren't really needed to mitigate burst. If I had any other healers mastery I would be inclined to agree that mastery is good, but it really is a class by class basis and even tank vs raid healing.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150



Hi. Mastery is good. Haste is bad. Check my raid status.

Clinging to haste and avoiding mastery is LK thinking and probably why some people are struggling.

If you have mastery, you get bonus healing for free. Haste lets you cast another spell faster (more healing) but costs more mana. In the current environment free healing trumps more heals.

Mastery vs Crit is an interesting discussion. Haste has no place in this tier.


Except that haste let's you use a more efficient spell where you would normally use a less efficient one. In a way, haste provides regen by letting you throw weaker heals faster. A hasteless healer will have to resort to inefficient spells sooner.

Also, for specs like Disc mastery is terrible. Shields are such a small percentage of what we do, are weak, and aren't really needed to mitigate burst. If I had any other healers mastery I would be inclined to agree that mastery is good, but it really is a class by class basis and even tank vs raid healing.

This is true, but in raids you also have to consider that for shaman, a HUGE part of our heal (like ~60%) is uneffected by haste past a certain level if you're using the HR type raid healing style. (which you will be a fair bit as it's the most hpm of our aoe healing)
Edited by Jynus on 12/19/2010 3:39 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
11215
12/19/2010 3:26 PMPosted by Gnomender

Except that haste let's you use a more efficient spell where you would normally use a less efficient one. In a way, haste provides regen by letting you throw weaker heals faster. A hasteless healer will have to resort to inefficient spells sooner.


Healing Rains is 30%+ of a shaman's raid healing, on targets that are sub 50% most any time you cast HR. Mastery boosts this spell quite a lot. Haste does not.

Haste is not valuable in current shaman raiding. HW cannot do HS or GHW's job even with high haste in a raid, it is a waste of a stat.

Crit and Mastery are the Rsham secondaries this tier. Notice both stats give free healing and/or regen.
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85 Draenei Shaman
4845
12/19/2010 3:26 PMPosted by Gnomender
Except that haste let's you use a more efficient spell where you would normally use a less efficient one. In a way, haste provides regen by letting you throw weaker heals faster. A hasteless healer will have to resort to inefficient spells sooner.

This isn't true.
When you do or do not use inefficient spells has got NOTHING to do with how fast you cast, it's all based on your hps.
Hyperbolically speaking: If you can cast 3 2.5s heals that heal for 10k each (higher throughput per heal), or you can cast 5 1.5s heals for 6k (faster and weaker heals), you will be casting the same heals and after 7.5s the target will have the same exact health, except that in the second case you hpm will be 60% of the first, making the first case more desireable.

When you resort to inefficient heals is solely dependet on hps, when you run out of mana is solely dependenton hpm, end of story. That's why all the debates, because people are trying to figure out what stats give hpm and hps, in what situations these numbers hit what ROI, and whether those situations are frequent or not.

IE: mastery would always lose in the WOTLK model where the tank is constantly swinging between 50 and 100% and needs a constant stream of heals, and dps is constantly between 80 and 100. In Cata it is true that you have a lot of people, including the tank, hardly ever above 75%, and you hardly ever need to address something within 2s, you normally have a 5s reaction time to most heal events, and 5-10s blocks to do something in, which can accomodate non fast, better hitting heals.

That's why resto shammies aren't stacking haste anymore, despite the high value per point, because the hps isn't that phenomenal anymore, and the hpm can be dangerously low.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12055
Hoof, that's not entirely true. If the haste gets your efficient heal's HPS output high enough that you can chain it instead of using your big heal, then you are saving mana because the efficient heal is, as the name describes, more mana efficient in terms of turning mana points into hit points.

However, that haste breakpoint is something like 50-100% haste for most casters.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11845
12/19/2010 5:18 PMPosted by Sevzi
Hoof, that's not entirely true. If the haste gets your efficient heal's HPS output high enough that you can chain it instead of using your big heal, then you are saving mana because the efficient heal is, as the name describes, more mana efficient in terms of turning mana points into hit points.

However, that haste breakpoint is something like 50-100% haste for most casters.


Our big heal is as efficient as our medium heal, so what you're saying doesn't make any sense.

The real reason haste improves efficiency for druids is breakpoints on hots, more clearcasts, and LB output scaling linearly with haste (breakpoints don't matter much when it's refreshed). None of those apply to shaman besides reaching the relatively low Riptide haste threshold.
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85 Draenei Shaman
4845
12/19/2010 5:18 PMPosted by Sevzi
Hoof, that's not entirely true. If the haste gets your efficient heal's HPS output high enough that you can chain it instead of using your big heal, then you are saving mana because the efficient heal is, as the name describes, more mana efficient in terms of turning mana points into hit points.

However, that haste breakpoint is something like 50-100% haste for most casters.

That only holds true if you have to emergency heal, which doesn't happen that often, and when it does, really makes mastery shine anyway.

Assume crit instead of mastery:
If you can output 6k hps, whether you do it with 5 hastened HW or 3 unhastened ones of which one is a crit, you are still healing for 48k over 8 seconds (numbers pulled out of thin air for the sake of example). Your recovery over 8 seconds went EXACTLY the same.

In WOTLK, this (empowering slow heals) wasn't viable, because at no point in time you had 8 seconds to heal somebody, but that was ok, because we all were mana batteries.

In Cata, mana is a precious resource, but you ARE given time to heal AND you can now heal while moving for 12s every couple minutes, and we can still insta a big heal every 2m (plus now we can unleash it too). This is why just stacking haste isn't as desirable anymore.

If you consider mastery in the comparison instead of crit, your number will be the same, except your biggest healing in that 8s span happens when it's needed the most, at the lowest percentage.

In all cases, Haste is excellent recovery utility, and great for mobility, but the argument of "you can cast more smaller heals" doesn't hold any water, as that, in a context where you have time to heal, aways boils down solely and exclusively to HPS, whichever way it's achieved.
The argument to try and make haste look like good hpm is highly artificial, crit is and will always be the best hpm, with mastery 2nd. At least for shammies. Of course other classes have massively different priorities sometimes.
Edited by Hoofnpuff on 12/19/2010 6:06 PM PST
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85 Goblin Shaman
3350
The problem with Resto Shaman mastery isn't that it is terrible, it is just that mana concerns seem to make it not in the top 2 secondary stats, and most gear only has bonuses to two secondary stats.

Spirit provides the most regen and interacts with Mana Tide, which makes it #1 choice for secondary stats.

Crit provides heals where they're needed, it provides physical damage mitigation, it provides stronger heals, and it provides better mana longevity. This makes Crit the #2 choice for secondary stats.

Haste is the highest throughput, but hurts your mana longevity, which at this point is a hard pill to swallow. Mastery is nice in that it heals more when you need it more and it doesn't hurt your mana longevity... but it also doesn't have the same added benefits (mana restoration, -10% physical damage) as crit does... which places it out of the top 2 in my book.

Maybe once gear improves, mana becomes less of an issue, bosses hit harder, and crit naturally increases due to int then it will make sense to switch over from Spirit + Crit into Haste + Mastery... but for now I think I'll be clinging to my spirit and my crit.
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Mastery is pretty good for resto druids. It's at least as good as crit, better if you are primarily a tank healer (which everyone is in 5-mans, so yeah). It's not as good as haste up to 1221, but it's competitive after that.

Blizzard actually did a pretty good job of balancing rdruid secondary stats, at least in this tier. There is nothing that makes you say "ugh, it has X, I can't use it". Reforging also helps, of course.

If there is a problem, it's that Intellect is SO much better than any secondary stat that you just about always want to use higher-ilvl stuff.
Edited by Cirocco on 12/19/2010 6:35 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
4845
That I can gree with Mcgraze, sort of, and it's why I think the debate on whether crit is better than mastery is still open.

I do think there are thresholds and situations which offset things more one way or another though, and I think at some point in second tier raiding we'll end up sticking to a haste soft cap for hots, then get crit to a reasonable level, and then stack mastery from there on.

While crit always scales your heals, what brings it on par of mastery or makes it better even below a certain health percentage, doesn't always scale with the raid past a certain point.

Once everybody who stood in the rain has AF for the next 10s (which is probably around 22% crit for a 90% incidence), and you have procs ticking all over the place from that or a chain heal, crit's value is considerably diminished, and boils down to just how much it will scale the next heal, except that you do play a game of chance, whereas mastery will remain predictable, and will still scale linearly.
Further to that, given the "on lowest health target" nature of one of our smart heals, I think there will be more gain in a 25man where you're the only shammy than in a 10man (where you will still most likely be the only shammy).

Insofar my attempt to go crit based, hitting about 23% with all buffs at its best, was definitely netting me worse numbers than mastery, as did my (current) hybrid attempt of gemmed out of crit but reforged to crit.
So for now I will probably reforge back to stacking mastery, and tweak my spec again. I think if I could hit the 30%+ raidbuffed, and tanks weren't taking as much damage, I would have seen considerably different results.

In short: I think the models we're running now are entirely too simplified, and until I have enough logs to parse (myself, with my own tools, not with wol's limited options), I don't really think I'll be able to model something more accurate, which leaves me with rather shaky empyrical evidence to go by for now.
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86 Blood Elf Priest
5590
12/19/2010 4:25 PMPosted by Sausagefan

Also, for specs like Disc mastery is terrible. Shields are such a small percentage of what we do, are weak, and aren't really needed to mitigate burst. If I had any other healers mastery I would be inclined to agree that mastery is good, but it really is a class by class basis and even tank vs raid healing.


PoH = guaranteed absorbs. So no, mastery isn't terrible for Disc.

Mastery only affects Power Word: Shield. So yes, you're ill informed.
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85 Undead Priest
6665
PoH gives Divine Aegis for Disc priests. Divine Aegis is affected by mastery.
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85 Troll Druid
4620
I reforge out of mastery and wouldn't dream of gemming for it, but it's better than not having it on gear at all...
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