For Cecilia RE: raid progression list

85 Blood Elf Paladin
6380
Might I offer a suggestion? Your current posting strategy negates the fact that some guilds have both 10 and 25 man teams, or that some 25 man guilds will likely score 10 man kills prior to their 25-man versions.

A newcomer to the realm looking for a guild of their preference (10-25), would not know if kills posted were in 10 or 25 man version, only that a kill of that boss occurred. Also some guilds would like to advertise their diversity in raiding (having both 10 and 25 man raid teams) and the current system doesn't allow for that distinction.

So, for the sake of clarity in recruiting and public relations, would you simply consider splitting the list between 25 and 10 man guilds and listing their kills separately between 10 and 25 man versions.

Sounds reasonable. I hope you would consider it.
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90 Troll Shaman
11750
**TLDNR, I know. Long story short: 25m accomplishment is different, no matter what Blizz says. Guilds that focus on 25m content have different challenges besides the programmed mechanics of the fight . List them separately from 10m.**

[/quote] So, for the sake of clarity in recruiting and public relations, would you simply consider splitting the list between 25 and 10 man guilds and listing their kills separately between 10 and 25 man versions.

Sounds reasonable. I hope you would consider it.[/quote]

This. I saw you mentioned Blizz considers 10 and 25m kills the same thing and so will the progression list. I've been calling shenanigans on Blizz making that decision since day one.

I will argue that, though they have been "scaled" (tsk) to be the same difficulty on both, they are not. Main example: In 10 m, you have to coordinate only 10 people and make sure they don't stand in laser beams, fire, goo etc...In 25m...well there's 25 people soo that's more people to not have stand in !#@#. If you're dealing with 10% of your raid being um incompetent, you've got more to deal with in 25m (I won't even go into the issue of half people ^_^)(meaning that 10% of 25 is 2.5. yay math!)
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6380
Also (as I forgot to mention), Cecilia, you mention in your posts that wowprogress.com makes no distinction. I am afraid that is incorrect. If you view the site, there are three tabs for tier 11 progress: a tier 11 composite, tier 11 10man, and a tier 11 25man. This is further reason to separate the kill lists.

This is not a discussion about what is harder or not, it is as simple as the raids are different. One takes 25, and one takes 10.

The difference should be noted in our local progression threads and reporting.

V/R
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85 Gnome Warlock
6260
At the time of his post, Cec was correct. Wowprogress.com dropped the 10 vs 25 when the armory feeds were stripped of the distinction.

They are now EXPERIMENTING with the separation, though it has its bugs.
http://www.wowprogress.com/post/64_Experimental_10/25_rankings


And like your example, the whole 25 vs 10 distinction is difficult.
Our guild for example is a 25man guild, but we have not begun Official 25man raiding yet.
However we are casually playing with 10mans through the holidays and getting boss kills as 10.
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90 Human Warrior
9385
**TLDNR, I know. Long story short: 25m accomplishment is different, no matter what Blizz says. Guilds that focus on 25m content have different challenges besides the programmed mechanics of the fight . List them separately from 10m.**

This. I saw you mentioned Blizz considers 10 and 25m kills the same thing and so will the progression list. I've been calling shenanigans on Blizz making that decision since day one.

I will argue that, though they have been "scaled" (tsk) to be the same difficulty on both, they are not. Main example: In 10 m, you have to coordinate only 10 people and make sure they don't stand in laser beams, fire, goo etc...In 25m...well there's 25 people soo that's more people to not have stand in !#@#. If you're dealing with 10% of your raid being um incompetent, you've got more to deal with in 25m (I won't even go into the issue of half people ^_^)(meaning that 10% of 25 is 2.5. yay math!)


Honestly, this argument of "Organizing 25 people vs 10 people in regards to difficulty" is just a cop-out. Mostly all I'm seeing is 25man guilds getting butthurt that some guild is taking server firsts on 10man while everyone else is slowly levelling their 25 people to lvl 85.

The "Difficulty" of organizing 25 people to be online, on time, etc versus 10 people is completely unrelated to the difficulty presented by the boss encounter, and therefore really has no bearing on the difficulty of the accomplished kill. If your guild CHOOSES (Note the word usage there: "Choice") to run 25mans instead of 10mans, you are acknowledging these extra steps required and bringing them upon yourselves.

Let's refer to Wikipedia for just a second: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice

The very first sentence explains that a choice "consists of the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them." Your merit to 25mans (in Blizzard's eyes) is slightly increased loot, however you are NOT (again, in Blizzard's eyes) entitled to a false sense of prestige and superiority just because you chose to put up with 24 other incompetent beings instead of 9.

In fact, many people (myself included) feel that 10mans can pose an increased difficulty through a smaller margin for error. Let's refer, for a second, to a post made in the actual progression thread (from none other than Insomnia themselves) that I feel sums this up quite well:
Not to go more off-topic, but, while it can be more difficult to keep more people organized (depending on your raid team), consider this: there is much, much more room for error in a 25-man setup considering the difficulty is the same. Think about one hunter (of course) in a 25-man who decides to not move and die in fire, you have just lot one DPS out of approximately 16. That's about 6% of your raids total DPS gone. If that same hunter is in a 10-man group and does the same thing, that's one DPS out of either 5 or 6, or 17/20% of you total DPS. Basically, in a 10-man, the overall competency of your team has to be higher,


Cecilia has already stated that he will be acknowledging a guild's primary mode of raiding in a footnote off to the side of the guild's name and progression level.

Think of it this way: You'd rather have BOTH your 10 and 25 man kills counted (say you only get Nef on 10man, but not yet 25) than only one or the other. If I were perusing the forums for a new guild and looked at a guild that killed 6/6 Blackwing Descent, even if Nefarian was only on 10man while the rest were 25, I would be highly inclined to hop over and check out their own recruitment thread or website. This could actually work out BETTER for your public relations than if you separated the two.

TL;DR: Butthurt 25man guilds rage about 10man guild ninjaing server firsts. 25man guilds use logical fallacies and unrelated arguments to denounce the equality of 10m vs 25m. Outcrys are made for 10/25 separate notation that is already being done in the progression thread.
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85 Orc Shaman
3160
12/17/2010 12:25 PMPosted by Boxxylol
TL;DR: Butthurt 25man guilds rage about 10man guild ninjaing server firsts. 25man guilds use logical fallacies and unrelated arguments to denounce the equality of 10m vs 25m. Outcrys are made for 10/25 separate notation that is already being done in the progression thread.


If you're insinuating that Wolves cares about server firsts, I'm sorry to say you couldn't be more wrong.

It's about accuracy. If a player is looking for a strictly 25m raiding guild, then the progression list should show that - which it currently does. I think OP wants even more discrepancy, especially in the case of our guild where we will have a second, and completely separate, 10 man team that will operate independently of the main 25-man raiding core. Reading is hard, isn't it?

Let me reiterate this point for you once more so your butt doesn't chafe any more than it has:
Nobody cares about server firsts.
Edited by Dragontits on 12/17/2010 12:54 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6380
Let me repeat. This conversation, and my reason to post, has nothing to do with any arguments about difficulty. Please reread my post. Raiding 10man is different than raiding 25m. Not harder, not easier, .... Different.

That difference needs to be reflected in the kill reports, which is a tool for newcomers to assess at a glance the quality and type of guilds on a server.

To use Limited Edition as a prime example, let's say that 10 man group continues to kill bosses while they build their 25 man corps. As they continue to report their kills, their tracking reads increasing kills, but there is NO indication that those kills are in the preferred form of raiding for that guild. All a newcomer sees is that a 25 man guildmhas multiple kills in the raid, when in fact they may not (yet) have downed a boss with 25 people.

So simply, can we separate the types of preferences in the reporting? Some guilds will continue to be large enough to post activity in both preferences (10 and 25). And would like that fact represented in the principle thread on this realm forum.

I am confused on why this really is such an issue. It's about accuracy in reporting, and effective display of guild feats for prospective applicants
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85 Human Paladin
3240
Or we could all just do the smart thing and scrap the entire idea, and let Wowprogress do their job and just not have one on our realm forums.

If potential applicants want to see how far the guild they're applying to is in a raid dungeon, they can do one of two things (or both): check wowprogress, or go the guild's website that they're applying for. Most guilds actually have their most recent kills up to date on their website.
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85 Gnome Warlock
6260
But relying on wowprogress.com to update armory feeds removes the fun of posting "look who we just got down" in a thread like the realm progress thread.

Joking aside I wonder this myself.... Why does the trend still exist for every realm to keep their progress thread manually updated when wowprogress is quite accurate.
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85 Human Death Knight
12000
Bottom line is: The progression thread is not an advertisement thread. It is simply a local means of tracking progression. If a guild downs a boss in 10 or 25, it will be counted as a kill. For persons that come to the forums looking for a guild, it would be in their best interest to research the guild and talk to someone in game regarding the details of their kills.

Posting 10/25 versions of every kills makes for a very crowded forum.

If someone wants to make a 'guild list' thread with all the guilds websites and GMs and member's preference of boxers or briefs, be my guest. The progression thread is simply a means of tracking kills on a guild to guild basis.

Personally, I've been doing hardcore raids since MC was out (server firsts, top 10 US ect) and I'd much rather go back to pure 25s or pure 40s where the only choice was if you raided or you didn't. The choice is neat, but it just makes for more complicated than it needs to be. That mentality (and of course the changes to 10/25 lockouts being the same) is why the progression thread will track any 10 or 25 man kill as a kill. If you don't want your 10 man kill tracked as a 25 man guild, then don't post it.

It seems cruel, but its far more practical - and best serves the purpose of a progression thread this way.
Edited by Cecilia on 12/17/2010 4:53 PM PST
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85 Gnome Priest
2935
12/17/2010 12:25 PMPosted by Boxxylol
Think of it this way: You'd rather have BOTH your 10 and 25 man kills counted (say you only get Nef on 10man, but not yet 25) than only one or the other. If I were perusing the forums for a new guild and looked at a guild that killed 6/6 Blackwing Descent, even if Nefarian was only on 10man while the rest were 25, I would be highly inclined to hop over and check out their own recruitment thread or website. This could actually work out BETTER for your public relations than if you separated the two.

TL;DR: Butthurt 25man guilds rage about 10man guild ninjaing server firsts. 25man guilds use logical fallacies and unrelated arguments to denounce the equality of 10m vs 25m. Outcrys are made for 10/25 separate notation that is already being done in the progression thread.

WOOOOSH. Pretty sure the biggest problem is that there are guilds, on every server, who claim to be 25-man guilds, yet they're killing 10-man bosses while they "prepare" for 25-mans and posting their progression. And as a result, the progression thread reads something like "<Guild> (25-man) - 9/12" when in fact they've only killed 9/12 bosses on 10-man. Personally, I have no idea why a guild focusing on 25-mans would bother posting their 10-man kills, but you can bet it's a) false advertisement for possible recruits, b) stealing the glory of guilds who have actually managed to kill the same amount of bosses on 25m, and c) really, really stupid.

And now to the other topic at hand.

In both my current guild and my former guild, there wasn't a single raider who chose to raid 10s exclusively in Cata because they didn't want to downgrade themselves as players (myself included). When I heard the news that players had to choose between raiding 25s or 10s, two reasons to focus on 25s came to mind.

First being that 10s are unnecessarily difficult to set up. If you're in a 10m guild with both melee and casters, and you're planning on having all DPS buffs and debuffs, you have very little breathing room in terms of raid comp. I'm pulling these numbers out of my ass, but say you have 2 tanks, 2 healers and 6 DPS in your 10m. 6 DPS is a very small number of players to cover all needed buffs/debuffs. It's going back to the concept of bringing the class and not the player (and I'm positive that any raider who cares about their progression wouldn't want to deal with that). Furthermore, 10m guilds have almost no room to over-recruit, yet at the same time, they're completely dependent on their 10 raiders. I don't know about you, but I've been in four raiding guilds in my WoW career and none of them were comprised of people all with flawless attendance records. Again, not something serious raiders want to deal with.

Second being that 10s are easier. All the 10m raiders who haven't touched content on 25m can claim that they're equal (or even "harder," LOOOOL) as long as they like but I'll never believe it. As someone who has cleared most normal content on 25m and almost all normal content on 10m, the difference in difficulty is mind-blowing. Not that 10s are substantially easier than 25s now than they were in WotLK, but that they're STILL so much easier that I can't believe Blizzard attempted to combine the two raids into one progression.

The biggest problem with 10m raiders who try to claim the raids are the same difficulty is that they're taking into account only the mechanics of the bosses when, in reality, is has nothing to do with that. 25m Atramedes and 10m Atramedes could very well have their mechanics scaled perfectly. I have no idea. But that's not why 10m Atramedes is the eaiser boss. It's the little things like being able to take your 10 best-geared players instead of your entire raid core, having physically more space for 10 people in the boss room than 25 people (which DOES make a huge difference), having a smaller group to watch for people who make mistakes and thus correct them, etc etc etc, I could really go on forever.

I guess you can call me a "butthurt 25m raider," but I'm very sorry to say that I'm all about honesty. To see 10m guilds taking US/world ranks where my guild should be because they're raiding watered-down content hurts our recruitment. And even when we attempt to compare ourselves to other 25m guilds to determine our actual US rank, we have a bunch of guilds killing additional bosses on 10m and acting like it's part of their 25m progression. To all those guilds, I ask you: How do you tell recruits who apply to your guild saying, "I saw on your guild's progression thread that you're a 25m guild with */12 bosses down" that you've really only killed those bosses on 10?
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85 Human Death Knight
12000
Ironically, no one from Insomnia has directly said "10 mans are just as difficult as 25 mans". The only people trying to dispute this are 25 man guilds who can't get people together to raid as soon as some 10 man guilds are. If you care about progress, and you aren't raiding the first week or two, then you're in the wrong guild. If you feel you aren't in the wrong guild - then you don't care about progress.

Either way, you shouldn't care enough whether 10s or 25s are tracked separately. Furthermore, because 10s and 25s share an identical lockout, it is even more pointless to distinguish between the two. NO GUILD (except for ultra hardcores like Paragon, and Ensidia which HUGE rosters) will be doing both 10 and 25s each week. A guild will choose one, and it will be how they raid.

For three days now, the progression thread has had either '10 man' or '25 man' next to the guild name to distinguish between the two - and that is all there will be. I will not be having a whole additional line of kill lists that won't ever be worked on. To dispute this is complete and utter ignorance.
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90 Human Warrior
9385
12/17/2010 12:50 PMPosted by Dragontits
TL;DR: Butthurt 25man guilds rage about 10man guild ninjaing server firsts. 25man guilds use logical fallacies and unrelated arguments to denounce the equality of 10m vs 25m. Outcrys are made for 10/25 separate notation that is already being done in the progression thread.


If you're insinuating that Wolves cares about server firsts, I'm sorry to say you couldn't be more wrong.

It's about accuracy. If a player is looking for a strictly 25m raiding guild, then the progression list should show that - which it currently does. I think OP wants even more discrepancy, especially in the case of our guild where we will have a second, and completely separate, 10 man team that will operate independently of the main 25-man raiding core. Reading is hard, isn't it?

Let me reiterate this point for you once more so your butt doesn't chafe any more than it has:
Nobody cares about server firsts.


Alright, first off let it be known that I in no way meant to offend Wolves of War as a guild or you Dragontits (awesome name, by the way). My post was 99.9% directed at Dodecanone's post, and is why I chose to quote him/her.

Dragontits, your posts have actually been extremely constructive and beneficial to the overall development of the progression thread, and because of your positive attitude I have the utmost respect for your opinion.

First being that 10s are unnecessarily difficult to set up. If you're in a 10m guild with both melee and casters, and you're planning on having all DPS buffs and debuffs, you have very little breathing room in terms of raid comp.
This is a moot point. Blizzard is lessening the impact of these raid-wide buffs to reduce the reliance of raid leaders on having these buffs in their comps. I know for a fact from talking to a friend in Insomnia that they raid without a %-spell damage taken debuff, with mostly caster DPS to boot! Blizzard really is trying to make the decision more on bringing the player than bringing the class/spec, and it shows since they are able to be successful so far without a 100% optimal raid comp.

As someone who has cleared most normal content on 25m and almost all normal content on 10m, the difference in difficulty is mind-blowing.


This statement is very much in a gray area. As someone who has raided both 10 and 25man regular and hard mode content, I can say that the difficulty equality is becoming closer for sure, and it very well may be there for Catacylsm, but for that I can't say. No fight is really inherently "hard". We were able to complete 10m HM LK with alts before we ever thought about getting LoD because it's easier to coordinate 10 non-retarded people at once. The talent pool on Draka is extremely small, and with the large number of "high-end" raiding guilds spreading the talent out, there is not much room for growth and success on Draka in 25mans (at least from the Hard Mode side of things). 10 and 25man HM Lich King were both pretty equal in terms of difficulty and scaling. They were pretty much the identical fight with different group sizes and # of val'kyrs. People adamantly declaring that 25mans are without a doubt more difficult than 10 mans are just blissfully ignorant or in a defiant state of disbelief/denial.

...having physically more space for 10 people in the boss room than 25 people (which DOES make a huge difference)...


Atramedes is a really good example of how 10 and 25mans are scaled similarly in difficulty, regardless of the encounter itself. I know that for 10man Atramedes, we had a few situations where the larger room with less people actually made it HARDER for us. We would sometimes get stuck in situations where 1 or 2 people were on the clear opposite side of the room due to avoiding a breath or sonic blasts and the 2-3 healers were on the other side unable to reach them in time. In a 25man, you would have more healers to spread out amongst each side of the room and give you a bit more leeway in terms of positioning. Also think back to 10vs25man Blood Queen Lana'thel, where on 10man you would need to spread out to 12 yards apart (since the room was bigger for less people) and you only had to spread out for 10 yards on 25man. Blizzard is even taking room size into account when scaling these encounters, you can rest assured so.

Cecilia, keep up the good work and godspeed to Insomnia in their 10man progression trailblazing. They're gonna have to overcome the haters and get work done in an apparently hostile world while the devout 25manners look down on 'em in a rage.

TL;DR: Haters Gonna Hate.
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85 Gnome Priest
2935
12/17/2010 8:25 PMPosted by Cecilia
The only people trying to dispute this are 25 man guilds who can't get people together to raid as soon as some 10 man guilds are.

Very incorrect. From what I've seen, the people trying to dispute it are 25m guilds who want to be ranked against other 25m guilds, regardless of when they'll begin raiding. Obviously 10m guilds don't apply to this, because it's not like 10m guilds are raiding 25s on their offnights. Nobody's saying "Bawww, this 10m guild is raiding before our 25m guild is able to." They're saying, "There's no way to tell which kills for this guild were on 10m and which were on 25m, and it's confusing." To have a guild's 10m progression displayed next to their guild name in which they specify being a 25m guild makes about zero sense.

12/17/2010 8:25 PMPosted by Cecilia
Furthermore, because 10s and 25s share an identical lockout, it is even more pointless to distinguish between the two. NO GUILD (except for ultra hardcores like Paragon, and Ensidia which HUGE rosters) will be doing both 10 and 25s each week. A guild will choose one, and it will be how they raid.

How is this relevent? There's more than one raid instance in this content patch. Many, many guilds work on one instance as 25m and down bosses on 10m in another on their offnights. It's not "ignorant" to expect a guild who claims to be a 25-man guild to have only their 25-man progression tracked. But, even if you're going to track both difficulties as if they're the same, I don't get why simply adding a second line to each 25m guild for their 10m progression is too much to ask. If you're going to have no problem tracking 10m kills for 25m guilds, what's the difference?
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85 Gnome Priest
2935
12/17/2010 9:04 PMPosted by Boxxylol
This is a moot point. Blizzard is lessening the impact of these raid-wide buffs to reduce the reliance of raid leaders on having these buffs in their comps. I know for a fact from talking to a friend in Insomnia that they raid without a %-spell damage taken debuff, with mostly caster DPS to boot! Blizzard really is trying to make the decision more on bringing the player than bringing the class/spec, and it shows since they are able to be successful so far without a 100% optimal raid comp.

It is not a moot point. Whether or not you're able to down a few bosses without a spellpower debuff means nothing more than that you didn't have a spellpower debuff--most guilds pushing boss kills will want to have all buffs and debuffs present. Again, this is only one of the many reasons why I will never raid 10-mans full-time.

12/17/2010 9:04 PMPosted by Boxxylol
This statement is very much in a gray area. As someone who has raided both 10 and 25man regular and hard mode content, I can say that the difficulty equality is becoming closer for sure, and it very well may be there for Catacylsm, but for that I can't say. No fight is really inherently "hard". We were able to complete 10m HM LK with alts before we ever thought about getting LoD because it's easier to coordinate 10 non-retarded people at once. The talent pool on Draka is extremely small, and with the large number of "high-end" raiding guilds spreading the talent out, there is not much room for growth and success on Draka in 25mans (at least from the Hard Mode side of things).

I just want to clarify that, when I said that I've experienced both 10m and 25m content, I meant in Cata, not WotLK. In WotLK, I've cleared both 10m and 25m heroic content, but that doesn't matter in this expansion. For the first week of Cata, my guild had an offnight 10m team in which many of us experienced and downed bosses on 10m before 25m. Yes, I certainly do believe the 10m bosses were less difficult.

12/17/2010 9:04 PMPosted by Boxxylol
10 and 25man HM Lich King were both pretty equal in terms of difficulty and scaling.

Completely disagreed, with all due respect.

12/17/2010 9:04 PMPosted by Boxxylol
Atramedes is a really good example of how 10 and 25mans are scaled similarly in difficulty, regardless of the encounter itself. I know that for 10man Atramedes, we had a few situations where the larger room with less people actually made it HARDER for us. We would sometimes get stuck in situations where 1 or 2 people were on the clear opposite side of the room due to avoiding a breath or sonic blasts and the 2-3 healers were on the other side unable to reach them in time. In a 25man, you would have more healers to spread out amongst each side of the room and give you a bit more leeway in terms of positioning. Also think back to 10vs25man Blood Queen Lana'thel, where on 10man you would need to spread out to 12 yards apart (since the room was bigger for less people) and you only had to spread out for 10 yards on 25man. Blizzard is even taking room size into account when scaling these encounters, you can rest assured so.

If a 10m guild has their raiders completely spread all over Atramedes's room to the point that healers are out of range, that just means their raiders lack awareness, not that 10s are therefore harder. For my guild's Atramedes's kill, we had the raid on one half of the room at all times, and I assumed other guilds did the same. I guess I was mistaken. In any case, it's one of my counterpoints against one boss fight. I do believe that it's harder to monitor players who don't know what to do in 25m Atramedes, and I do believe being able to pick and choose your 10 best raiders for Atramedes would make the fight less of a carry-fest.
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90 Orc Warrior
13065
People are pushing 10-man content instead of 25 so they can bark about how awesome they are and point at the arbitrary ranking system and go "look at us, we're the number X guild on Draka!" Stop being douche nozzles and just track them separately. You're worried about a cluttered thread? Make 2 separate threads. Hurray. Problem solved. You can keep tracking your 10-man kills and showing the world how awesome you are and the 25-mans can make themselves a different thread and show the world how awesome they are too.

You all know damn well that 10s and 25s are not the same in difficulty -- the devs during the Q&A panel at Blizzcon said as much. The real bottom line is this change was introduced so casual players could, once again, have an easier route towards comparable gear. It's the same path this game has been sliding down since Vanilla. It's easier and lazier to blaze through content on 10-man, whether your egos will allow you to admit it or not.

Having said this, I really don't care how stuff gets tracked. No one's going to listen to one another. My advice to the people who don't like the current setup is to make your own. Let the rest of the server decide how they want it tracked instead of imposing your own preference.
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85 Human Death Knight
12000
Ironically, no one from Insomnia has directly said "10 mans are just as difficult as 25 mans". The only people trying to dispute this are 25 man guilds who can't get people together to raid as soon as some 10 man guilds are. If you care about progress, and you aren't raiding the first week or two, then you're in the wrong guild. If you feel you aren't in the wrong guild - then you don't care about progress.

Either way, you shouldn't care enough whether 10s or 25s are tracked separately. Furthermore, because 10s and 25s share an identical lockout, it is even more pointless to distinguish between the two. NO GUILD (except for ultra hardcores like Paragon, and Ensidia which HUGE rosters) will be doing both 10 and 25s each week. A guild will choose one, and it will be how they raid.

For three days now, the progression thread has had either '10 man' or '25 man' next to the guild name to distinguish between the two - and that is all there will be. I will not be having a whole additional line of kill lists that won't ever be worked on. To dispute this is complete and utter ignorance.


ignorance? why? because 10 man guilds and 25 man guilds would like separation in their kills? if you don't want to do it then let someone else take it over.


You obviously don't have a very high level of reading comprehension. Allow me to bold the area of importance - in regards to what your comment is about.

This whole deal is getting way out of hand. I've never seen so much traffic on the Draka forums - ever. Think about this logically, and I'm sure (assuming everyone is thinking logically) everyone will see it my way. In 2 months when 25 mans who consider themselves 'hardcore' have all their raiders geared and doing 25 man kills, there won't be any of this. People will raid 10s or 25s, period.

Edit: The idea that 25s are more difficult that 10s is completely irrelevent to the guild progression thread, and I don't even know why people are argueing over it. But I'd like to add my own perspective on it, just in hopes of bringing some rest to some of the more... passionate people.

Take this scenario into account: Assume you have a 25 man guild, 30 raiders. Half of your guild are good players, and half of them are trash. In a 25 man raid, having half bad players, you will have poor dps, and poor raid awareness. Take your best players, and bring them into a 10 man raid (5 sitting out). Now 100% of your players are good players, and suddenly the encounter becomes so much easier.

Determining if a 10 or 25 man encounter is more difficult than one or the other is impossible. I can say with no arrogance that I am most likely the most experienced raider on the entire realm (full vanilla, BC, and LK content). In terms of difficulty, the entire game is REALLY easy. 10 mans seem to be trivialized because most 10 man teams bring their best (as said above) - but in reality; aside from organizing more people - ALL the content is just as easy as any other fight.
Edited by Cecilia on 12/17/2010 10:13 PM PST
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85 Gnome Priest
2935
12/17/2010 9:57 PMPosted by Cecilia
This whole deal is getting way out of hand. I've never seen so much traffic on the Draka forums - ever. Think about this logically, and I'm sure (assuming everyone is thinking logically) everyone will see it my way. In 2 months when 25 mans who consider themselves 'hardcore' have all their raiders geared and doing 25 man kills, there won't be any of this. People will raid 10s or 25s, period.

I don't know, I kind of thought that the whole point of the progression thread was to rank guilds based on who kills the bosses first. Why is the progression thread going to matter when everyone has everything on farm? Furthermore, what's the point of having the progression thread completely skewed because the maintainer tracked 10m kills for 25m guilds at the start of the expansion? You're right--after 25m guilds get everything down on 10m, they won't raid 10s anymore. But this period of progression at the beginning of the content patch is the most prominant moulding mechanism for the thread itself, and it's going to affect the rest of the expansion when everyone ~*~considers themselves hardcore~*~

I think I agree with Kagehiro; someone ought to create another progression thread.
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85 Human Death Knight
12000
This whole deal is getting way out of hand. I've never seen so much traffic on the Draka forums - ever. Think about this logically, and I'm sure (assuming everyone is thinking logically) everyone will see it my way. In 2 months when 25 mans who consider themselves 'hardcore' have all their raiders geared and doing 25 man kills, there won't be any of this. People will raid 10s or 25s, period.

I don't know, I kind of thought that the whole point of the progression thread was to rank guilds based on who kills the bosses first. Why is the progression thread going to matter when everyone has everything on farm? Furthermore, what's the point of having the progression thread completely skewed because the maintainer tracked 10m kills for 25m guilds at the start of the expansion? You're right--after 25m guilds get everything down on 10m, they won't raid 10s anymore. But this period of progression at the beginning of the content patch is the most prominant moulding mechanism for the thread itself, and it's going to affect the rest of the expansion when everyone ~*~considers themselves hardcore~*~

I think I agree with Kagehiro; someone ought to create another progression thread.


If you don't want your precious 25 man guild tracked as a 10 man, then don't post 10 man kills. It's really that simple.

Edit: I hate to start sounding callous, but its really turning into a pissing contest, instead of arbitrarily tracking progress for the realm - which is the intent of the thread.
Edited by Cecilia on 12/17/2010 10:18 PM PST
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