Let the numbers do the talking(real numbers)

85 Human Rogue
5610
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/classrank/dtb/11/0/3

Thanks to Carmie for mentioning wow meters...

Words at this point are superfluous.


Enjoy ladies and Gentlemen
Edited by Ondskan on 12/20/2010 6:34 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7135
Let the small, inaccurate sample size speak...for...itself?

Go to the DDF, somebody compiled a somewhat better list of his own from World of Logs, the site that people actually use to upload their logs.
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83 Blood Elf Paladin
1610
go go rogues!
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85 Human Rogue
5610
12/20/2010 4:12 PMPosted by Sparklefairy
Let the small, inaccurate sample size speak...for...itself?

Go to the DDF, somebody compiled a somewhat better list of his own from World of Logs, the site that people actually use to upload their logs.


I hereby give you the challenge to find me 1 pally player in any top 10 DPS of any cata raid... I apologize for not being able to find one, not even in #10...of any of the 4 raid instances, 10 man or 25 man....
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85 Human Rogue
5610
Just to enlighten some more heads... First person who finds a pally in any of the cata charts gets a cookie

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Bastion_of_Twilight/dps/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Blackwing_Descent/dps/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Throne_of_the_4_Winds/dps/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Baradin_Hold/dps/
Edited by Ondskan on 12/20/2010 4:23 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
10575
I'm doing a pretty good amount of DPS. I'm around 335 avg ilvl and can pull off up to 13k DPS. The only problem is that rets spend the whole fight praying to the RNG gods, like my DPS is 13k at its highest, but also 7k at its lowest (on the same fight). Then also the 15 sec ramp up time %%!*ing kills us to. Any fight that has switching to adds or any form of running away, we don't stand !!#* of a chance.

Blizz gave us a rotation, but we're still as broken as we ever were, if not even worse with this RNG bull!!#*.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7135
12/20/2010 4:20 PMPosted by Ondskan
I hereby give you the challenge to find me 1 pally player in any top 10 DPS of any cata raid... I apologize for not being able to find one, not even in #10...of any of the 4 raid instances, 10 man or 25 man....


Done.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pbt42xsxajv9jtmo/sum/damageDone/?s=9220&e=9659#Anaxie

Anaxie's MUH DAWG
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90 Human Paladin
13930
WoW Meter always felt flawed to me compared to WoL. However, WoL feels a bit more clunky when I am trying to find certain statistics. :S

I do not think many guilds have cleared a lot of the content yet, or have posted logs of their kills. I am more interested in the heroic logs anyway.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
12/20/2010 4:12 PMPosted by Sparklefairy
Let the small, inaccurate sample size speak...for...itself?

Go to the DDF, somebody compiled a somewhat better list of his own from World of Logs, the site that people actually use to upload their logs.


Do you have any evidence to back up your position? How is the wow meters data flawed? You suggest the sample size is a problem. Give us some numbers. Please give us some proof, not just words, or else your position is very weak.

As well, EJ suggests that even in bis gear retribution has a low top-end output compared to other dps.

Finally, I went over the world of logs data on my own. I was struck, as anyone else would be, by the lack of paladins appearing anywhere near the top of any fight. I've only looked at 10 man numbers so far, but it is a glaring absence. Then, I decided to check deeper into the Cho'gall fight. I found my first retribution paladin 8 pages of data later, in the 288th position.

It's early, but denying that retribution damage is low without offering any evidence whatsoever to the contrary just seems obstinate. I'm offering three independent lines of evidence that anyone can check. You seem to be offering words and anecdotes.
Edited by Carmie on 12/20/2010 4:56 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
Just checked Cho'gall 25. Top paladin is at 326. Sparkle, I don't think world of logs is helping your position much.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
12/20/2010 4:25 PMPosted by Sparklefairy
I hereby give you the challenge to find me 1 pally player in any top 10 DPS of any cata raid... I apologize for not being able to find one, not even in #10...of any of the 4 raid instances, 10 man or 25 man....


Done.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pbt42xsxajv9jtmo/sum/damageDone/?s=9220&e=9659#Anaxie

Anaxie's MUH DAWG


I'm curious...do you think this is evidence of anything in particular? You do understand that in a discussion of overall trends, anecdotes are meaningless, right?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7135
Listen, I'm not the moron comparing people that have a good mix of epic gear, and an epic weapon, to rets that don't have either of those. Top 50 parses come from top 50 guilds, and not every ret in every top 50 guild has the same gear right now! How do you not understand that? It's absolutely impossible to have any kind of relevant statistical analysis. You don't need proof to make that assertion.

Christ, let's just as Yaerius. Do you think it's fair to compare your parses with your very good gear to Requital's parses, a ret who previously owned the world 2nd Saurfang parse in 3.3(no tricks either), but he doesn't even have an epic weapon or epic gear yet? Would you say that both parses being put into the same comparison would be fair?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
Omnitron defense 25, world of logs: top paladin is #311.

At this point I'm pretty confident in the wow meters data. Retribution has very low dps, at least when comparing top players.

The discussion should not be whether ret damage is low; all evidence suggests that it is. The reasons it is low should be our focus. I suggest some combination of the following:

1. As the class with the most radical design changes, it is taking players longer to adjust. This strikes me as more likely for average players than top end players.

2. Bugs/design flaws. Broken mastery and (probably) bugged Guardian of Ancient Kings could account for some missing dps.

3. Gear scaling. Some have suggested that our design is such that we will scale better with gear than other dps, kind of like Wrath era fury warriors. This is a possibility, though not necessarily comforting during the current tier.

4. Undertuned. Some of our numbers may need tweaking.

5. Difficult/complicated rotation. This is often mentioned in forums.

Likely all five of these contribute in part to retribution's current weak performance. 1 and 5, if true, should correct themselves with time. 3 is an interesting hypothesis and would also correct with time, at least for players who have access to the best gear. 2 and 4 would need to be addressed by Blizzard directly.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
12/20/2010 5:14 PMPosted by Sparklefairy
Listen, I'm not the moron comparing people that have a good mix of epic gear, and an epic weapon, to rets that don't have either of those. Top 50 parses come from top 50 guilds, and not every ret in every top 50 guild has the same gear right now! How do you not understand that? It's absolutely impossible to have any kind of relevant statistical analysis. You don't need proof to make that assertion.

Christ, let's just as Yaerius. Do you think it's fair to compare your parses with your very good gear to Requital's parses, a ret who previously owned the world 2nd Saurfang parse in 3.3(no tricks either), but he doesn't even have an epic weapon or epic gear yet? Would you say that both parses being put into the same comparison would be fair?


There's no point continuing this discussion with you. You do not understand how averages work. I could point out that what you are saying would be true of every class, not just retribution, and thus will average out the same, but you are stuck on anecdotal comparisons. You seem to be emotionally invested in your position, as well. I don't think that there is any evidence contrary to your current position that you would find acceptable.
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85 Tauren Paladin
5805
12/20/2010 4:54 PMPosted by Carmie
Do you have any evidence to back up your position? How is the wow meters data flawed? You suggest the sample size is a problem. Give us some numbers. Please give us some proof, not just words, or else your position is very weak.


Argaloth 10man:

wowmeteronline
125 entries total

worldoflogs
1435 Kills
2969 wipes
4404 Entries

Which do you think is the better sample size?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7135
12/20/2010 5:25 PMPosted by Carmie
There's no point continuing this discussion with you. You do not understand how averages work. I could point out that what you are saying would be true of every class, not just retribution, and thus will average out the same, but you are stuck on anecdotal comparisons. You seem to be emotionally invested in your position, as well. I don't think that there is any evidence contrary to your current position that you would find acceptable.


It seems you don't know how the site works. It is not an average of every single combat log ever stuck in blizzard's audit files and compiled for everybody to see. It is a website that people use to upload their combat logs for a night of raiding, and as such it is subject to statistical insignificance if not a whole of lot of people use it. This is the case with Wowmeter online, and exactly why my first point about this whole thing being ridiculous is true.

My second point is that people simply don't have enough gear to compare! If you're taking the average of all paladins, and you've got a fellow with mostly epics and another fellow with mostly blues, this is going to very severely skew the results for paladins, especially if you're only taking a number as small as the top 50 in a statistically irrelevant sample size such as Wowmeter online.

If you go ahead and look at the actual compilation of top 50(something I still find irrelevant) from World of Logs don on these very DDF forums, you'll find that Retribution is in fact not the lowest spec out of all the other relevant DPS specs, and rather near the lower end of the middle of the pack, which is fine because paladins are hybrid classes.

The mere fact that you're asking for evidence to suggest something other than your findings when yours and ALL other "evidence" is statistically insignificant is ridiculous, and I see absolutely no reason why you're so adamantly supporting it.
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85 Human Rogue
5610
12/20/2010 4:25 PMPosted by Sparklefairy
I hereby give you the challenge to find me 1 pally player in any top 10 DPS of any cata raid... I apologize for not being able to find one, not even in #10...of any of the 4 raid instances, 10 man or 25 man....


Done.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pbt42xsxajv9jtmo/sum/damageDone/?s=9220&e=9659#Anaxie

Anaxie's MUH DAWG


what you posted is damage done, not dps
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85 Human Rogue
5610
12/20/2010 5:33 PMPosted by Tsegah
Do you have any evidence to back up your position? How is the wow meters data flawed? You suggest the sample size is a problem. Give us some numbers. Please give us some proof, not just words, or else your position is very weak.


Argaloth 10man:

wowmeteronline
125 entries total

worldoflogs
1435 Kills
2969 wipes
4404 Entries

Which do you think is the better sample size?


worldoflogs data that you show, even though i have not checked for validity, further shows the sad state of ret dps
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85 Human Rogue
5610
12/20/2010 5:14 PMPosted by Sparklefairy
Listen, I'm not the moron comparing people that have a good mix of epic gear, and an epic weapon, to rets that don't have either of those. Top 50 parses come from top 50 guilds, and not every ret in every top 50 guild has the same gear right now! How do you not understand that? It's absolutely impossible to have any kind of relevant statistical analysis. You don't need proof to make that assertion.

Christ, let's just as Yaerius. Do you think it's fair to compare your parses with your very good gear to Requital's parses, a ret who previously owned the world 2nd Saurfang parse in 3.3(no tricks either), but he doesn't even have an epic weapon or epic gear yet? Would you say that both parses being put into the same comparison would be fair?


What you say also applies to every single class in the game...do we really scale that way so that until we get all epics pallies will be bottom dps?

Not fair, there is no excuse for that on behalf of blizzard's implementation
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Magmaw
Mages: 5,301


If mages can get last on a fight, something is definitely odd...
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