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This feels like a giant expletive to the WoW community by making this fishing and cooking achievement tied to guild advancement.
I will present an example of what I mean.
1. You have a guild, one person conscientiously fishes up at least 200 fish per day and puts them in the guild bank. This person moves the counter from 0-5000, half-way done, alone. Then the guildmaster, for reasons of his own, decides that he's going to replace this person and take away their raid spot. And then, well, why not, why have someone who isn't raiding in our guild, and kicks that person. The counter doesn't go back down to 0 for that guild, it stays at 5000.
2. But our plucky young adventurer isn't done yet, no, they join another guild where they can secure a raid spot. What is this guild's counter at? That's right, you guessed it, 0, and not 5000. So this person again plods along, at least 200 fish a day, until the counter gets to 2500, when the guildmaster of this guild decides "this isn't working out" and kicks them.
3. So this person joins yet a third guild, is the counter at 7500? No. Does the second guild get punished in any way for removing this person? No. Does any of this person's individual progress get saved to their character? No. So what is this person to do? They level a character with inscription high enough to make fortune cards, and make cookies out of them. Then they go to raid with their new-found guild. And someone asks, "Why aren't you clicking on the dragon feast?" and this person says, "I have something better to eat." The guildie responds, "Well can I have some?" And our protagonist says "No, this stuff is way more expensive to make." and gets kicked from the guild.
Sorry to hear about your guild troubles.
This does bring up a good point though. With all the guild achievements out there, we have a few people in our little friendly guild who are working quite hard on them. We just made level 2 last night (finally!!) and plan on plugging away. For the life of us, I can't imagine kicking anyone out unless they were causing horrible strife and drama within the guild. So far, we've managed to recruit some great folks.
I see this though as a trend. Right now, some guilds are recruiting like mad. There is probably going to be a bit of instability for awhile. Positions seem to be much more fragile in some of these raiding guilds where you can be kicked so easily. I feel for the folks who are on the receiving end of a kick, especially when they've put in some work on achievements.
Big hug to you.
The story wasn't bad, but I didn't feel that I was really able to empathise with the protagonist. I would suggest adding a bit more of a backstory to help humanise him. Maybe his wife left him and he is left trying to feed his starving children? - this would tie in quite well with his need to fish.
I think it would also help to flesh out the three guilds mentioned in the story. Make them more evil and callous - this would help the reader to really feel the burning injustice that the protagonist is suffering.
Finally, I suspect that most people (I certainly do) want to know just what the fishing counter of the third guild was at. You've established that it wasn't at 7500 but then left the reader in the dark as to what it actually was. I think the implication is that it was at zero, but it would help bring closure if you could make this clear in the narrative.
In a world.....where fish come from pools.....One man is fishing...for JUSTICE.
For every person this happens to, there will be 10 who get to join a guild where the achievement is already earned. Or like someone else said, stop getting kicked out of guilds.
if you are that dedicated to getting 10k fish achieve for a guild, create your own, hopefully no one will kick you from that. second option would be learn to become a decent person so you dont get kicked, third option would be find a guild that has it and beg to be let in, last option would be find a guild which tolerates you for longer, guild achieves are fun and a great part of the game now, makes people a little more loyal to guilds and provides more of a time sink to keep us playing
My point is that guild achievements hurt the individual player and put too much power in the GM's hands.
For guild achievements to really work it has to be a 2-way street. A GM kicks someone, the guild xp they earned and anything else they worked on, like a boss kill, should go with them. Even if it means the guild goes down a level. And the person getting kicked should be able to have something to show for their troubles. Otherwise the GMs have all the power in the relationship.
This is an actual conversation I have had with my GM
GM: Hey come tank this raid for me.
Me: You said I wasn't going tonight.
GM: Yeah well none of the new tanks showed up.
Me: You mean the 3 tanks that are total strangers that you recruited yesterday and promoted above me for no reason? And they didn't show up?
GM: Yeah, it sucks, come tank this.
Me: I would but I made other plans, since you told me two days ago that I wasn't going tonight.
GM: Really? Can't you put them off for a little bit? How important are these plans?
Me: Why was I demoted? I showed up, on time, every raid night since I joined this guild in wrath?
GM: Look either tank this or you are out of the guild.
And this is a person who I thought was reasonable and fair before the guild achievement system went in. Now he seems like a power-mad dictator who flunked out of art school. He knows the guild achievements won't be damaged by randomly kicking people, so there is nothing holding him back from saying "My way or the highway".
I picked the fishing example for a reason: the individual's accomplishments have no value to the guildmaster since they don't get erased when that person either bounces or gets kicked. Which leaves no incentive for the GM to either try to keep people or to refrain from kicking them on a whim. If I could sit there and force myself to get 10,000 fish, then any guild I join should automatically get the achievement. It shouldn't be tied to guild achievement in the first place. I shouldn't have to complete it more than once. And it would give a person leverage when it came to GMs drunk on power.
GM: Tank this or I will kick you.
You: Go ahead, all your fish feasts will become useless. And the scorpion mount, and the guild will lose about 2 or 3 levels of XP etc. etc.
GM: Okay, I see your point, I should have asked nicer. Will you please tank this for me?
For a guild achievement system to work, there has to be an incentive to prevent kicking, and some kind of reward for someone doing everything he should be doing, but happens to have an insane GM.
Lastly, there's another reason I picked the fishing example. Being demoted twice, in a guild I have been in for over a year, with no explanation; and then having my raid spot given to two different people (1 main, and 1 bench) who just joined the guild a day ago, again with no explanation, has made me want to stop fishing altogether. I don't want to increase that counter anymore if I know that the GM is just going to kick me in a few days for no reason.
In short, this new system has taken a relaxing aspect of the game which I used to like to do in between dungeons and crapped all over it.
On a different character. This is a bank alt, on a different server. I didn't want to create guild drama in the event that someone who knew me read this.
Ah.. by the way, you could make some serious money by selling your fishing skills to a guild for x amount of gold.. I'm sure a lot of the top raiding guilds on your server would want that fish feast and would pay a ton of money for one person to get them it.
In no way, shape or form, should 1 person be able to hold an entire guild hostage.
And because a group of players want to go off to form their own guild, in no way, shape or form should a guild lose out on stuff that they worked on.
Your extreme examples =/= reason for extreme consequences.
Edited by Helagoth on 12/22/2010 7:14 AM PST
As I said, the fishing thing was just an example of stats which should be attached to the player and not the guild. Right now, it isn't. If you are removed, their counter stays at whatever number you helped them get to, and yours goes back down to 0. The best you can hope for is to join a guild near the number that your old guild was already at.
You are making my point for me.
Do this or you lose all these perks. How is that not holding someone hostage?
Go back to the fishing example. Pretend some person did the entire thing by himself. The "guild" didn't work on that, he did. But when he gets kicked from the guild, for him all of that work goes away, but only for him. His former guild continues to benefit from the perk he provided them, for free.
They are not extreme consequences. It is an extremely unfair system is what it is. There is nothing in place, for example, to prevent a person with a max level guild from kicking everyone and becoming the ultimate pugging machine in a guild of one; it will happen. Or for that person to extort gold or items from his guildies in order for their continued access to guild perks? Sadly, it will happen.
What the guild achievement system has really done is take people who once had a relationship that was collegial in nature and turn it into a boss-employee dynamic that no one asked for in the first place. This game went from "We're all here to have fun." to "Do what I say or else." It went from "I can't wait for that Red Sword of Courage to finally drop" to "You need to get a better weapon or you are out of the guild."
This guild system is crap. Flat out, utterly pointless crap. And I can't blame the developers because it isn't like you can beta test this. There were not enough people in the beta, who were friends, to test the parts of the system that strain loyalties, since everyone was a stranger. This system gives every current GM every incentive to be a complete jerk and turns every other member of that guild into an underpaid greeter at a department store.
If your personal contribution to a guild isn't tracked and subtracted when you leave or are removed from a guild, then your personal contribution doesn't mean anything and it is therefor against your interests to help your guild in the first place, which is exactly the opposite reason of why this stupid system was shoe-horned into the game to begin with.
I like your argument.
Tell me, why would I want to help someone with an achievement that I no longer trust, for an achievement that will not stay with my character later if we part ways? In spite of the fact that we have raided together for over a year and they have suddenly changed their entire attitude towards me. Why should one component of the game actively discourage me from using another?
Tell me, why should I get shafted out of an achievement/perk that I mainly did myself? Why is it unreasonable to expect that my contribution to that achievement should follow me from guild to guild?
Tell me, if the guild system is designed to keep guilds together, why does it make members so disposable? Why have a separate rep grind for each and every guild you join when really you are merely there at the whim of the GM in the first place? It seems kind of pointless to me.
You missed the key point in my arguement:
Extreme examples do not warrant extreme consequences.
1 guy fishing up 10,000 fish by himself is an extreme example.
1 guy getting booted out of 3 guilds is an extreme example.
Take away a guild's XP progress (which they can't get back due to the XP cap, so they're permanently behind other guilds) because they want to remove someone who is a jerk? Extreme consequence.
Take away their achievement progress because they want to remove someone? Extreme.
There is no such thing as "they suddenly changed their opinion of you." Most likely they tolerated your crap because they needed you to tank. Then they found good tanks who don't have the drama issues, and demoted you. If they did it that quickly, trust me, they wanted to do it for a long time.
Either you are a jerk, and deserved to be demoted/kicked, or you are unlucky with guilds.
Overall, you sound mad that you got booted and you want to get back at them, not like you are making a significant contribution to the community. There is no reason to do a change like this, because at best it punishes a few people who indisciminatly kick people, and at worst force good guilds and people to put up with undesireables.
If you've been demoted despite showing up on time, every raid night and three tanks recruited to replace you then either (a) you are a complete tool, (b) you stand in fires a lot or (c) your GM is a complete idiot.
If it's (a) or (b) then your guild just doesn't want you. The simple fact that you have been demoted and replaced should be a very clear indicator that you should be looking for another guild. Why hadn't you left the guild before the GM even had the chance to threaten to kick you?
If it's (c) then again this is an even clearer indicator that you should be looking for another guild.
If the GM is really being that unreasonable then he is severely damaging his guild reputation (and I don't mean the reputation bar). This kind of behaviour is likely to lead to other good guildmembers leaving the guild and no new members joining. The fact that the guild still has achievements will be meaningless when there is nobody left in the guild.
However I suspect that the answer is mostly (a) with a bit of (b) thrown in. Successful guilds don't kick good players for no reason.
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