Shaman and Druid Base Heals

90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
12/17/2010 8:22 AMPosted by Keiyra
Well he has a point. Just looking at the cheap heals:

Average base heal +talent/spec% increase (no spell power, no crits, no mastery)

Nourish (no hot): 3713
Nourish (hot):4456
(Holy) Heal: 4883
(Disc) Heal: 3899 (assuming 3/3 empowered healing) (+15% int adds to sp portion)
(Disc) Heal(Gracex3): 4835 (assuming 3/3 empowered healing) (+15% int adds to sp portion)
Healing Wave (no ES): 3500
Healing Wave (ES): 4025
Holy Light: 5364



Thanks for those numbers. For Pally's you would have to add PotI as well. So a Holy Light
on the Tank would also heal to Pally and 50% of that would bounce back to the Tank.

The issue is really the bring the class philosophy.
Edited by Indyana on 12/17/2010 8:41 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
13395
12/17/2010 8:30 AMPosted by Drussilla
I consider Druids base heals to be Rejuv, WG, and 3 stack Lifebloom, and Rejuv + SM Cause if you're not using those as your 'base heals' you're doing something wrong.


Its obvious he's talking about the trinity of casted heals that all specs have (fast, cheap, big). Base as in common, not as in what is core to your spec's healing usage. No need to be obtuse.
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85 Draenei Shaman
SiN
4125
12/17/2010 8:30 AMPosted by Munney
Actually i have plenty or Heroic Experience. I might not have much time for heroics, but i am 6/6 on completing heroics.

As for raiding, again, i have only had one raid, and it was Baradin Hold and we 1 shot it. Dont know if you will count this as a raid, seeing as you want to believe i am bad, but guess who was second in heals?!?!

Me by .5%

Guess who was first in heals?

ANOTHER SHAMAN ZOMG BAD HEALERS!


So you 2 healed it with 2 Shaman and you're bringing up the fact that a Shaman topped the meters?

Nice job
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85 Draenei Shaman
3950
I'm not obtuse, but some healers use different heals for different situations. As a Druid healer, and yes I have a druid healer, I don't use the base healz he speaks of most, or really much at all, because I have all my efficient hots on party members, there by maximizing my efficiency, and effectiveness. I don't think focusing on the spells that are of minor concern to your healing rotation, or out of the intent of your healing intent is what we should be focusing on at this point.

Its like asking for a boost in the Immolate spell for Affliction locks rotation.
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A well played crew of DPS will never require the amount of healing most of these forum goers are asking for. Oh, that rogue got caught by a 3rd tornado during the Naz'jar fight....yeah, blizzard isn't going to cure an inability to see beyond recount.

(yes, I'm in my questing gear atm)
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
12/17/2010 8:38 AMPosted by Drussilla
I'm not obtuse, but some healers use different heals for different situations. As a Druid healer, and yes I have a druid healer, I don't use the base healz he speaks of most, or really much at all, because I have all my efficient hots on party members, there by maximizing my efficiency, and effectiveness. I don't think focusing on the spells that are of minor concern to your healing rotation, or out of the intent of your healing intent is what we should be focusing on at this point.

Its like asking for a boost in the Immolate spell for Affliction locks rotation.


Looking at the recent Pally nerf it seems Blizzard has a vision for how they want us to heal. They want us to use our efficient heal as an auto attack equivalent as an example.

There's no reason for Druid and Shammy single target heals to be as low as they are.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
12/17/2010 8:43 AMPosted by Gahege
A well played crew of DPS will never require the amount of healing most of these forum goers are asking for. Oh, that rogue got caught by a 3rd tornado during the Naz'jar fight....yeah, blizzard isn't going to cure an inability to see beyond recount.

(yes, I'm in my questing gear atm)


What does playing with good players have anything to do with the disparity in the core heals between the different specs?
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85 Human Priest
3585
12/17/2010 8:22 AMPosted by Keiyra
Well he has a point. Just looking at the cheap heals:

Average base heal +talent/spec% increase (no spell power, no crits, no mastery)

Nourish (no hot): 3713
Nourish (hot):4456
(Holy) Heal: 4883
(Disc) Heal: 3899 (assuming 3/3 empowered healing) (+15% int adds to sp portion)
(Disc) Heal(Gracex3): 4835 (assuming 3/3 empowered healing) (+15% int adds to sp portion)
Healing Wave (no ES): 3500
Healing Wave (ES): 4025
Holy Light: 5364


Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the direct heals need to be increased since you have to look at the whole healing kit interaction, but he is right in suggesting the druid/shaman ones are feel a little low - especially off the tank target. The one advantage I can see for Healing Wave is it can be hasted alot by Tidal Waves, which may on average bring up its HPS compared to the others (though not its HPM)

I bet blizz is still looking in to tweaking the numbers here and there, give it time.


It looks fine. Disc is fine due to grace falling off. Druids are fine. Paladins are a bit larger. holy priests are a little big. Shaman are a little low.

Not sure on shammy mechanics that might help behind the scenes. Maybe they need a small bump. Everyone else is fine. Paladins are a bit high, but there might be trade off in mana costs or something there.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13395
12/17/2010 8:38 AMPosted by Drussilla
I'm not obtuse, but some healers use different heals for different situations. As a Druid healer, and yes I have a druid healer, I don't use the base healz he speaks of most, or really much at all, because I have all my efficient hots on party members, there by maximizing my efficiency, and effectiveness. I don't think focusing on the spells that are of minor concern to your healing rotation, or out of the intent of your healing intent is what we should be focusing on at this point.

Its like asking for a boost in the Immolate spell for Affliction locks rotation.


I don't know if your druid is 85 or not, but if he's not using Nourish or HT then more power to him. (RG is such a weak spell - that im glad I don't use it much in my healing style, because I'd cringe in pain if i had to use it alot as is.)
Rejuv, lifebloom and SM of course are of vital importance, and to a lesser extent WG, Nourish and HT, but it still get enough use out of the last two that i'd like to make sure they are properly balanced (and for the most part i think they are ok)

Since my shaman is not 85 yet, i can't say how important the 3 casted heals are for their healing style, but apparently the OP feels they are important (and from what i read i do hear about alot of Healing Wave usage by shamans) - so don't be so quick to dismiss the concern.
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12/17/2010 8:46 AMPosted by Indyana
A well played crew of DPS will never require the amount of healing most of these forum goers are asking for. Oh, that rogue got caught by a 3rd tornado during the Naz'jar fight....yeah, blizzard isn't going to cure an inability to see beyond recount.

(yes, I'm in my questing gear atm)


What does playing with good players have anything to do with the disparity in the core heals between the different specs?


You're asking for more, but what I'm pointing out is that more will not equate to better. If you run with a crew that does not play the fight mechanics well, no amount of buffs to our core heals will change the fact that you will wipe, pay repair bills, watch people rage quit, etc, etc. A well played group will be easy to top off and with well managed resources not put a strain on your mana bar.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
12/17/2010 9:02 AMPosted by Gahege


What does playing with good players have anything to do with the disparity in the core heals between the different specs?


You're asking for more, but what I'm pointing out is that more will not equate to better. If you run with a crew that does not play the fight mechanics well, no amount of buffs to our core heals will change the fact that you will wipe, pay repair bills, watch people rage quit, etc, etc. A well played group will be easy to top off and with well managed resources not put a strain on your mana bar.


That's not my point. I'm not talking about running 5 mans with my Guild. That's fine.

I'm talking about healing assignments in Raids. Right now a Pally is still the best choice for Tank healer because of superior single target throughput and Shaman are probably the worst. My point was there's no reason (under the new healing paradigm) for the three core heals to have such disparity.
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90 Worgen Druid
7760
12/17/2010 8:30 AMPosted by Drussilla
I consider Druids base heals to be Rejuv, WG, and 3 stack Lifebloom, and Rejuv + SM Cause if you're not using those as your 'base heals' you're doing something wrong.


I disagree, rejuve is too expensive now. Just use rejuve on the tank the boost lifebloom. Although I have not tried healing heroics yet (don't have the gear as of yet) so I could be mistaken but that is my impression.
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You're asking for more, but what I'm pointing out is that more will not equate to better. If you run with a crew that does not play the fight mechanics well, no amount of buffs to our core heals will change the fact that you will wipe, pay repair bills, watch people rage quit, etc, etc. A well played group will be easy to top off and with well managed resources not put a strain on your mana bar.


That's not my point. I'm not talking about running 5 mans with my Guild. That's fine.

I'm talking about healing assignments in Raids. Right now a Pally is still the best choice for Tank healer because of superior single target throughput and Shaman are probably the worst. My point was there's no reason (under the new healing paradigm) for the three core heals to have such disparity.


Well, now seeing your perspective I can see your point. You'll have to forgive me, this is the first healing post that looked into raiding. 99% of them at the moment are from folks who are astonished they can't AFK through heroics.

I guess the next question is, is blizzard keeping to the "healing roles" of BC (Paladin single target, druid raid heals, etc) and in that disparities are a part of the design, or will it be more homoginized like wrath. Personally, from what I've seen, it looks like we're swinging back towards BC healing roles.
Edited by Gahege on 12/17/2010 9:11 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
12/17/2010 9:10 AMPosted by Gahege


That's not my point. I'm not talking about running 5 mans with my Guild. That's fine.

I'm talking about healing assignments in Raids. Right now a Pally is still the best choice for Tank healer because of superior single target throughput and Shaman are probably the worst. My point was there's no reason (under the new healing paradigm) for the three core heals to have such disparity.


Well, now seeing your perspective I can see your point. You'll have to forgive me, this is the first healing post that looked into raiding. 99% of them at the moment are from folks who are astonished they can't AFK through heroics.

I guess the next question is, is blizzard keeping to the "healing roles" of BC (Paladin single target, druid raid heals, etc) and in that disparities are a part of the design, or will it be more homoginized like wrath. Personally, from what I've seen, it looks like we're swinging back towards BC healing roles.


Problem is that goes against their new 10 man model. They need to have homogenized Buffs and non specialized healers so any 10 man comp can be successful. In fact GC specifically said they want to get away from the idea that "your Pally didn't log in so the raid is called" mindset.
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85 Draenei Shaman
SiN
4125
12/17/2010 9:10 AMPosted by Gahege


That's not my point. I'm not talking about running 5 mans with my Guild. That's fine.

I'm talking about healing assignments in Raids. Right now a Pally is still the best choice for Tank healer because of superior single target throughput and Shaman are probably the worst. My point was there's no reason (under the new healing paradigm) for the three core heals to have such disparity.


Well, now seeing your perspective I can see your point. You'll have to forgive me, this is the first healing post that looked into raiding. 99% of them at the moment are from folks who are astonished they can't AFK through heroics.

I guess the next question is, is blizzard keeping to the "healing roles" of BC (Paladin single target, druid raid heals, etc) and in that disparities are a part of the design, or will it be more homoginized like wrath. Personally, from what I've seen, it looks like we're swinging back towards BC healing roles.


This is what I thought at first too.

Then I started running through heroics with guildmates where we can clear the trash just fine but the bosses are just destroying us because my heals are 1) expensive 2) weak.

Vanilla & BC were like this except our heals weren't weak - they healed for a lot. Mana management was an issue, but we were actually able to top DPS off with a single GHW and sit and regen a little bit while our HoTs/Earthshield/whatever kept the tank healthy enough.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
My understanding is that paladin base heals were buffed in part because other classes have a high-efficiency buffer (Earthshield, Lifebloom, etc) and we don't.

Priest heals were buffed because I guess priests were having throughput issues towards the end of beta? I'm not really sure.

Mastery may also play a part. Shamans and druids both have masteries that make the actual green number above someone's head bigger. Paladins and priests don't. (Which is not to say that one mastery is better than the other, but they do work in different ways.)

That said, with PotI now transferring via Beacon and I guess being intended (making PotI one of the least intuitive talent choices ever) you could argue that paladins have more of a buffer than we used to.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
12/17/2010 9:19 AMPosted by Lyria
My understanding is that paladin base heals were buffed in part because other classes have a high-efficiency buffer (Earthshield, Lifebloom, etc) and we don't.

Priest heals were buffed because I guess priests were having throughput issues towards the end of beta? I'm not really sure.

Mastery may also play a part. Shamans and druids both have masteries that make the actual green number above someone's head bigger. Paladins and priests don't. (Which is not to say that one mastery is better than the other, but they do work in different ways.)

That said, with PotI now transferring via Beacon and I guess being intended (making PotI one of the least intuitive talent choices ever) you could argue that paladins have more of a buffer than we used to.


I think there's two levels of balance.

1) Balance the basic trinity of heals so they have comparable output on their target.
2) Balance the rest of the package so HPS and HPM are comparable.
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85 Worgen Druid
2980
12/17/2010 8:13 AMPosted by Merkimus
Bases heals are fine. Want a boost, use Unleash Life.


You have virtually zero experience in heroics and raid content, with an average ilvl of 334.

Mayhap you should acquire a little more experience before you start running your mouth? Just a thought!

ps. our base heals are a little weak - it shouldn't require mana and a GCD to bring it up to par.


Umm, your average ilvl is also 334.
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85 Draenei Shaman
SiN
4125
12/17/2010 10:12 AMPosted by Stovey


You have virtually zero experience in heroics and raid content, with an average ilvl of 334.

Mayhap you should acquire a little more experience before you start running your mouth? Just a thought!

ps. our base heals are a little weak - it shouldn't require mana and a GCD to bring it up to par.


Umm, your average ilvl is also 334.


Negative. It's 340.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8385
12/17/2010 8:35 AMPosted by Merkimus
Actually i have plenty or Heroic Experience. I might not have much time for heroics, but i am 6/6 on completing heroics.

As for raiding, again, i have only had one raid, and it was Baradin Hold and we 1 shot it. Dont know if you will count this as a raid, seeing as you want to believe i am bad, but guess who was second in heals?!?!

Me by .5%

Guess who was first in heals?

ANOTHER SHAMAN ZOMG BAD HEALERS!


So you 2 healed it with 2 Shaman and you're bringing up the fact that a Shaman topped the meters?

Nice job


O i apologise, i forgot that since 10s and 25s share loot you would automatically assume i do 10s.

wel i dont. My guild runs 25s. FLAME ME AGAIN AS 25s ARE EASIER THEN 10s!
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