KICK- PVE inconsistency with other interrupts

100 Human Rogue
12585
Nowadays, Kick costs 15 energy, down from 25. It is off global cooldown. It looks pretty nice right? Not really - we need to look at other melee classes' mechanics to figure that out.

Shaman's Wind Shear costs 8% base mana, is also off GCD and has a 6 seconds cooldown. Enhancement has no mana problem throughout fights because of mana regenerating mechanics - therefore there is no limiting factor to interrupting.

Paladin's Rebuke costs 10% base mana, is also off GCD and has a 10 seconds cooldown. Ret has no mana problem throughout fights because of mana regenerating mechanics - therefore there is no limiting factor to interrupting.

DK's Mind Freeze costs 20 runic power (hey starting to be on par with Kick?), but DKs also have a talent, Endless Winter, which reduces the cost by 20. DK's interrupt are also free, therefore there is no limiting factor to interrupting.

Warrior's Pummel costs 10 rage, but just like DKs, warriors have an arms talent, Drums of War, which reduces its cost and the costs of shout by 100%. therefore there is no limiting factor to interrupting. If this talent isn't chose, the fury talent, Rude Interruption, doesn't reduce the cost, but increases warrior's damage by 5% if a spell is successfully interrupted.

Now, I think you get the point. Pre-cataclysm, It was easier to kick due to high energy regen (17/sec with 60% or higher crit) and using 15 energy on a kick wasn't such a big deal.

With the current state of the rogue class (read: they are energy starving like an university student without his coffee), using 15 energy to kick right away like the other classes can isn't quite possible for the rogue class.

Using 15 energy every 10 seconds to interrupt on a raid encounter like the Omnitron Defense System also gives up ALOT of energy, and indirectly, ALOT of DPS. Basic maths:

15 energy * 6 times per minutes = 90 energy
90 energy * 7 minutes average fight (for the sake of easy maths) = 630 energy
630 energy / 35 energy (envenom) = 18 missed envenoms.

Obviously the maths are skewed because I didn't take into account combo points generating with mutilate, but it just goes to show how HUGE it is for a rogue to use interrupt on CD compared to the other classes. Hopefully the devs will put some thought into it.

Cliff notes: Unlike other classes, rogues can't kick ASAP due to energy starvation, and the cost of kick used on CD makes the rogue class give up too much DPS compared to other classes.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8280
You conveniently left out feral druids, who's kick costs 25 energy, and have worse energy generation than rogues
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85 Blood Elf Mage
13125
I gotta be honest, this is a pretty lame thing to whine about.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8280
Also, your "math" is a joke, but I agree with you in principle.
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85 Troll Druid
4445
12/19/2010 9:17 AMPosted by Thefirstone
You conveniently left out feral druids, who's kick costs 25 energy, and have worse energy generation than rogues


Along those lines, my gloves are reducing the rage cost of skull bash by 1.
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87 Draenei Shaman
5335
Kick has the best uptime of any interrupt and rogues are the only class who can stop something from chain casting alone.

That is ...

Kick: 5 second lock out, 10 second CD
Pummel and Mind freeze: 4 second lockout, 10 second CD
Wind Shear: 2 second lockout, 6 second CD

Its pretty awful trying to kill one of those tol'vir adepts when i'm the only one interrupting because I can only stop every third heal.
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100 Human Rogue
12585
12/19/2010 9:17 AMPosted by Thefirstone
You conveniently left out feral druids, who's kick costs 25 energy, and have worse energy generation than rogues


oops- sorry about that. it's probably because I hate them so much that my brain has unconsciously erased that class in any thoughts its able to produce.

well then- you're right. welcome aboard.
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85 Human Rogue
5025
12/19/2010 9:22 AMPosted by Kazakof
Kick prevents spell casts for 5 seconds. Wind Shear is 2 seconds.

Maybe you noticed on fights like LDW when someone would interrupt, and she'd just start casting it again... yeah, that was a shaman catching it with a wind shear.


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Rogues have one of the longest kick lock outs for pve (think there's one other class with a lock out as long as ours). If you try to set up an interrupt rotation with a rogue or an enh shaman, or worse, an enh shaman and an enh shaman, things will get very messy.

We get penalized heavily because it's still one of the best interrupts in the game, even if it still costs us dps. They've recognized this pseudo problem and reduced the energy cost in patch 4.0, a time when energy was the least of a rogue's concern. That wasn't done because it was hard to kick then, it was done because they knew it would be hard to kick now.
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80 Dwarf Paladin
7445
12/19/2010 9:21 AMPosted by Roghtar
Pool energy.

Pretend 25 is your new 0 energy. The nature of energy generation means you're not actually losing DPS by pooling some reserve kick energy.


Want to know something funny about Rebuke? Macro it into something else cause it's off the GCD and the seal it procs increases your damage!


That's no longer true the fixed that when Cata was released. If you still have it macro'd you are hurting yourself.
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80 Dwarf Paladin
7445
12/19/2010 9:24 AMPosted by Istara
Kick has the best uptime of any interrupt and rogues are the only class who can stop something from chain casting alone.

That is ...

Kick: 5 second lock out, 10 second CD
Pummel and Mind freeze: 4 second lockout, 10 second CD
Wind Shear: 2 second lockout, 6 second CD

Its pretty awful trying to kill one of those tol'vir adepts when i'm the only one interrupting because I can only stop every third heal.


Rebuke is also 4 sec and like warriors/DKs, we can make it free to cast (Glyph reduces mana cost by 100%)
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85 Tauren Paladin
13215
You won't need to interrupt every 10 seconds on that fight. Your 630 energy loss won't translate into 18 envenoms, unless envenom is the only ability you cast ever (it isn't).

"Obviously the maths are skewed because I didn't take into account combo points generating with mutilate, but it just goes to show how HUGE it is for a rogue to use interrupt on CD"

That line made me laugh out loud.

Yes, you sacrifice more than other classes in order to interrupt.

Also, Feral Druid interrupt takes energy/rage and you don't see any of them complaining.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
11010
12/19/2010 9:21 AMPosted by Roghtar
Pool energy.

Pretend 25 is your new 0 energy. The nature of energy generation means you're not actually losing DPS by pooling some reserve kick energy.


You don't lose dps by pooling the energy, but you still lose DPS by using it on a kick.
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90 Undead Rogue
13680
12/19/2010 9:56 AMPosted by Samarana
You don't lose dps by pooling the energy, but you still lose DPS by using it on a kick.

And people *%!@ing wonder why we get so many threads on these forums calling DPS idiots these days.
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85 Human Rogue
5025
Can we just drop this thread before we get nerfed for being cry babies again?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
15325
Personally, as a Rogue, and someone who wants to help my group...

I would much rather kick than envenom if it means I interrupted some potentially troubling thing from what we were fighting.

Big numbers do not matter if we all die.
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