rupture

85 Night Elf Rogue
0
12/26/2010 2:00 PMPosted by Tyrazsun
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Funny guy, here.
I don't want it to be DOT focused. I just want our dots to deal some kind of descent dmg.


have an instant 10k than a gradual 13k.


That's 30% more effectiveness. not even counting secondary effects (which you can't ignore although, rogues always do. If it's not damage, you view it as worthless. It's not). How much more do you want?


edit:

And although you did have hemo up, you also have 14% extra evis damage.


The problem is that there are not one, but TWO tradeoffs with rupture's use. Getting a 5CP rupture comes at the cost of a 5CP recuperate, pretty much always. You cannot keep a SND/Recup/Evis rotation up, it's not possible (it should've been, and could've been easily had Blizzard been smart about the Sub recup nerf and changed the mastery on recup to duration rather than intensity, but they just went with "Your mastery doesn't actually affect what it's supposed to, deal with it").

The loss of frequency of yellow attacks when sacrificing recup for rupture makes up for, within the margin of error (roughly 1%), any damage including ALL bonuses from Sanguinary Vein AND hemo. This doesn't even take into consideration the massive benefit that having a heal on your the whole time gives you, nor the innate opportunity advantage of having energetic recovery up while ShD is active.

Because of this, it's easy to conclude that Recuperate is far better overall than rupture as a finisher. The damage is roughly the same without considering ShD benefits, and you still gain a powerful regen.

Rupture with my level of mastery comes out to roughly 8870 total damage per use at max CP's. I just had a feral do triple that AFTER I killed him with one bleed, which had NO setup, no stealth or positional requirements. There's a dramatic difference between "not quite as good of DPS as a self heal" and "3 times the damage with no setup", and rupture should come out closer to where ferals are at than compared with a self heal.
Reply Quote
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
How does Recup compared to Evis? I'm not as familiar with rogues, but between the energy regen, and imp recup, it's struck as at the very least, amazingly strong.

And to be fair, for the 2 points compared to 5 you spend on recup, you can roll rupture for "free". Is that just talent bloat? I know alot of ferals take the equivalant, and ours only works below 25%.


Rupture will never hit as hard as a feral rip, simply because of mastery, the fact that feral is centered around bleeds, plus the "non damage" talents.

-And if you count the energy regen as sub, when you're mut, VW i imagine does a simlar job, no?
Reply Quote
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
12/26/2010 3:36 PMPosted by Minotaurum
Except Rupture. Rupture sucks.


And it's probably by design rather than negligence, tbh.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Rogue
0
Recup is mandatory, it's not just "really nice", you simply cannot perform without it. Backstab is 40 energy, 35 if it crits with BS glyph, but crits are too rare with the crit nerf to rely upon. Mut is 50 glyphed, but ALWAYS generates 2 CP, and often 3.

Mut is energy starved... except that with VW, there's a way around that, a very, very good way around it.

Sub is energy AND CP starved. Recup solves the energy problem, but the CP problem, and the lack of a decent finisher problem really hurts Sub hard.

12/26/2010 3:29 PMPosted by Tyrazsun
Rupture will never hit as hard as a feral rip, simply because of mastery


I want you to understand what you said here:

Ferals have bleed mastery, thus their bleeds will be modified significantly.

Sub rogues have finisher mastery, and one of our finishers is a bleed, one with a much higher setup and opportunity cost.

Why is it again that ferals' mastery is more important than Sub rogues'?

The idea that because of "non combat" benefits the difference is as insanely enormous as it is makes no sense at all. The reason being that each class has distinct non-combat benefits. Both have stealth, both have stuns, one is snare and poly immune, has cyclone, and 2 ways of preventing stealth, the other has vanish, sap, blind, and gouge, all of which are real "non combat". One has a self heal, the other has bear form and heals. One has sprint, the other has a full time runspeed benefit. The differences seem to me to balance out, or favor the feral slightly, as all of the ferals "extra skills" aren't negated by your bleeds.

So all we have really, is "Because ferals are bleed based", which while true, doesn't account for the fact that you have a stronger burst opener than sub does, that you share pretty much everything else that subs have, with the exception of white damage, which with the *outrageously* enormous hit cap difference AND armor modification simply makes that a complete joke when comparing something that ticks for full, even after you've died, modified by mastery, and not affected by armor, which has a hugely lower hit cap, and has the secondary benefit of preventing stealth.
Reply Quote
100 Troll Rogue
9120
12/26/2010 3:29 PMPosted by Tyrazsun
How does Recup compared to Evis? I'm not as familiar with rogues, but between the energy regen, and imp recup, it's struck as at the very least, amazingly strong.

And to be fair, for the 2 points compared to 5 you spend on recup, you can roll rupture for "free". Is that just talent bloat? I know alot of ferals take the equivalant, and ours only works below 25%.


Rupture will never hit as hard as a feral rip, simply because of mastery, the fact that feral is centered around bleeds, plus the "non damage" talents.

-And if you count the energy regen as sub, when you're mut, VW i imagine does a simlar job, no?


on target dummies, and any target with less armor than a shammy with a shield its usually better to go with evis instead of rupture for damage.

And no we can't roll it for free quite a bit of the time because we dont have the cps to keep up 5 pt evis's along with snd and recup.
Reply Quote
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
12/26/2010 3:46 PMPosted by Mourtifir
Ferals have bleed mastery, thus their bleeds will be modified significantly.

Sub rogues have finisher mastery, and one of our finishers is a bleed, one with a much higher setup and opportunity cost.

Why is it again that ferals' mastery is more important than Sub rogues'?


Did you miss the rest of the sentence? ;)

the fact that feral is centered around bleeds, rogues are not.
Reply Quote
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
12/26/2010 4:12 PMPosted by Redfang
And no we can't roll it for free quite a bit of the time because we dont have the cps to keep up 5 pt evis's along with snd and recup.


Even with rogues increased energy regen/cp generation, that sounds like a bit much for PvP. I could see it working in PvE ok, but not PvP.

4 finishers is a bit ridiculous, so cutting out rupture would be the obvious choice. (5 i suppoose, with KS).

You'd need a rogues regen/cp generation,and a feral's mobility to keep up, if that. Feral had enough problems trying to keep up with 3 finishers, nevermind more than that. I don't think expecting to keep up 5 finishers, even as the "finisher spec" is reasonable. It's just not gonna happen as a melee.



SnD, Recup, evis, and KS is enough, for PvP. SnD/Rupture basically share the same space, in pvp.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Rogue
11015
They should just remove Rupture from the game.

Let Venomous Wounds be a talented, unique DoT in the Assassination tree.

But yeah, delete Rupture. It's worthless.
Reply Quote
100 Troll Rogue
9120
12/26/2010 4:27 PMPosted by Tyrazsun
And no we can't roll it for free quite a bit of the time because we dont have the cps to keep up 5 pt evis's along with snd and recup.


Even with rogues increased energy regen/cp generation, that sounds like a bit much for PvP. I could see it working in PvE ok, but not PvP.

4 finishers is a bit ridiculous, so cutting out rupture would be the obvious choice. (5 i suppoose, with KS).

You'd need a rogues regen/cp generation,and a feral's mobility to keep up, if that. Feral had enough problems trying to keep up with 3 finishers, nevermind more than that. I don't think expecting to keep up 5 finishers, even as the "finisher spec" is reasonable. It's just not gonna happen as a melee.



SnD, Recup, evis, and KS is enough, for PvP. SnD/Rupture basically share the same space, in pvp.


Oh I thought you were talking about PvE, no rogue takes that talent for sub pvp, or atleast none that I know of. Sub pvp keeps up recup and thats about it for most classes, plate excluded, then we keep up recup rupture and hemo.
Reply Quote
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
Oh I thought you were talking about PvE, no rogue takes that talent for sub pvp, or atleast none that I know of. Sub pvp keeps up recup and thats about it for most classes, plate excluded, then we keep up recup rupture and hemo.



Oh, no, sorry, i don't realy poke my head into PvE. ;P sorry for the confusion!


edit:

For Pve though, ya, you're perfectly reasonable. You should be able to keep up rupture. Maybe just add SnD onto the rupture renew talent?

I don't think you can have more energy/cp generation because of PvP, so something like that seems the best way to do it. (although maybe that's too much)
Edited by Tyrazsun on 12/26/2010 5:12 PM PST
Reply Quote
81 Draenei Shaman
0
Ferals have bleed mastery, thus their bleeds will be modified significantly.

Sub rogues have finisher mastery, and one of our finishers is a bleed, one with a much higher setup and opportunity cost.


i really fail to see how rupture is harder to set up than rip.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
That's 30% more effectiveness. not even counting secondary effects (which you can't ignore although, rogues always do. If it's not damage, you view it as worthless. It's not). How much more do you want?


edit:

And although you did have hemo up, you also have 14% extra evis damage.


Please tell me you aren't talking about the 5% bonus I get from my talents. That's the only benefit I get from rupture.
---
Also, I am not talking about RIP (the Rupture comparison) I was talking about RAKE.
RAKE is spammable and deals just as much damage as Rupture.
Rip, is dealing more.

Where does it say Subtlety isn't balanced around bleeds?
We have a talent to buff it (hemo), A talent to increase damage when bleeding, and a talent that resets Rupture.
Pretty sure, that says Bleeds are a pretty important part of the tree. But, thankfully, they didn't make it a core part of the tree. If they did, I would have quit this game already.

Rupture could use a small boost. Not much, though. The damage isn't GOD AWFUL. But, I don't know. How much damage does Rip deal with Mangle?
Reply Quote
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
12/26/2010 7:22 PMPosted by Knocrogue
Rupture could use a small boost. Not much, though. The damage isn't GOD AWFUL. But, I don't know. How much damage does Rip deal with Mangle?



Not sure at 85, main's been a warrior. Assuming it's quite a bit more. But if you do compare them, you'll need to take into account HaT, and any other CP generating abilities, as well as the monster that is imp recup. Sub can maintain alot more finishers than Feral can.

Please tell me you aren't talking about the 5% bonus I get from my talents. That's the only benefit I get from rupture.


hmm?

No, i was comparing the numbers redfang posted, 10k evis crit vs ~13k rupture. That's 30% more damage, (and hemo increases rup by 30%, but your imp evis increases it evis by 14%, so rup still pulls ahead with no buffs).


For PvE, you also have to consider the insta "refresh" on it for free as well. I was focusing on PvP, though.


Basically, i was asking how much harder than evis would it have to hit for it to be "ok" for you.


Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
10020
Did you know? Rupture is the embodiment of the entire rogue class.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
hmm?

No, i was comparing the numbers redfang posted, 10k evis crit vs ~13k rupture. That's 30% more damage, (and hemo increases rup by 30%, but your imp evis increases it evis by 14%, so rup still pulls ahead with no buffs).

For PvE, you also have to consider the insta "refresh" on it for free as well. I was focusing on PvP, though.

Basically, i was asking how much harder than evis would it have to hit for it to be "ok" for you.


I don't know.
If you were to ask me, Eviscerate should hit non-resil targets for 35k.
30% is easy enough to get, and will reduce it by 10k. 25k Sounds reasonable to me. <.<
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Rogue
0
12/26/2010 4:16 PMPosted by Tyrazsun
Ferals have bleed mastery, thus their bleeds will be modified significantly.

Sub rogues have finisher mastery, and one of our finishers is a bleed, one with a much higher setup and opportunity cost.

Why is it again that ferals' mastery is more important than Sub rogues'?


Did you miss the rest of the sentence? ;)

the fact that feral is centered around bleeds, rogues are not.


Now please go back and read my post thoroughly, because that argument is covered, thanks.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]