Warrior/DK Threat is broken

90 Draenei Shaman
4830
Edit: This is not about spamming howling blast before the tank gets aggro. Please read the post before responding. Thanks.

Threat is a real problem on my frost death knight in heroics. I have to wait a good 10 seconds before engaging. Even after waiting, I commonly overtake single-target threat against an equivalently-geared tank.

Are these tanks all bad players? We're talking PUGs, so maybe... but this is a consistent problem for me.

Passive threat reductions have been removed from the game. Fair enough.

Thing is, every melee class except DKs and warriors have effective active threat management.

Druids: cower (-10% total threat)
Paladins: hand of salvation (-20% total threat over 10s), bubble (-100% total threat while bubbled)
Rogues: feint (-5% total threat), vanish (-100% total threat)
Shamans: Wind Shear (-5% total threat)
DKs and Warriors: Stop attacking and sit on your hands. Fun, right?

This wasn't a big deal in WOTLK, since tank aggro generation was very high. Threat matters now, and in a game where threat matters, being one of two classes unable to manage their threat is a major hindrance.

I can think of many ways to fix this.

- Add a 5-10% total threat drop to pummel and mind freeze. The obvious choice.
- Rime-procced howling blasts and icy touches drop total threat by 5%
- Bloodsurge-procced slams drop total threat by 5%
- Taste for blood-procced overpowers drop total threat by 5%
- Heroic Fury drops total threat by 10%
- Hungering Cold drops total threat by 20% (A real PvE use for this talent! Unholy wouldn't need a matching equivalent, since so much of unholy's damage is in the ghoul.)

TL/DR: Please add 5-10% threat reduction to pummel and mind freeze.
Edited by Slant on 12/27/2010 1:52 PM PST
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85 Goblin Death Knight
0
We definitely need a threat dump, although your tanks are also bad. But nearly all tanks are bad, which is why we need help.
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6 Gnome Warlock
0
While warriors and DK's need some PVE tools, yeah, your tank is just awful.
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If you are actually waiting and not dropping howling blast on a group of CC'd targets and pulling aggro, then the tank should be able to keep threat.

From what I have seen so far, once vengeance stacks up on a tank their threat is through the roof and you aren't going to pull off them. Although with misdirect and feign, I rarely worry about threat unless the tank is exceptionally awful.
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85 Goblin Death Knight
0
I think the obvious solution here would be for Blizzard to nerf our damage considerably.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
3330
threat is off.... even with 3-5 sec wait +rolling feint through my rotation, im often forced to vanish before overkill wears off, (30 secs after unstealth)... and still yet manage to pull threat again sometimes.... Omen is showing me as doing 20-25k threat at times.... even tho im only pulling some 15-17k dps
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17 Troll Warrior
100
12/27/2010 12:06 PMPosted by Slant
Are these tanks all bad players? We're talking PUGs, so maybe... but this is a consistent problem for me.


Most tanks that came up through WotLK really just have no idea how to generate threat in the current model simply because they have never experienced it before. Threat in WotLK was woefully easy to hold in nearly all situations minus a few select raid bosses. It made people sloppy and they will need to make adjustments. That is basically what it is coming down to at this point in time.

Even some of the guys from Vanilla/BC days have forgotten what it was like to have to actually try to generate threat so that is also contributing to the problem. Since this is early expansion play most of the solid tanks are busy running with guildies or friends so they are not joining the LFD groups. All of this combined means that you won't be running into very many quality tanks until people readjust to the threat model.

Fury warriors love to talk about threat problems on the warrior boards, but this is mostly because Fury can really front load a ton of damage now and they don't know how to throttle it back. Hitting Death Wish and CS on the pull causes 95% of Fury's threat issues, but that is something that can be fixed with a slight behavior change. Good Fury warriors with good tanks don't have threat problems, but mediocre Fury warriors with mediocre tanks can have them. Fury really doesn't need a threat dump, most people just need to alter their approach.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4830
Again I'm talking 5man PUGs, so yes the tanks tend to be mediocre at best. But that's really not the point.

The point is that threat matters now, really matters, and being one of two classes without any form of active threat management severely disadvantages DKs and warriors. Saying "learn to work around it" isn't a valid answer when that workaround is turning off autoattack and /dance'ing at the boss.

That's what we're asking for-- a real way to "work around it". A button to press like feint, wind shear, cower, etc, to manage our threat.

To the rogue that posted immediately preceding, imagine if you did around 10% less damage but didn't have feint or vanish. That's where DKs and warriors are now.

I literally have to turn off autoattack 30s into each boss fight unless I get hand of salvation. That's not much fun.
Edited by Slant on 12/27/2010 1:21 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
3255
And people ask me why I'm trying to hit Hit and Expertise caps :/
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85 Draenei Priest
7295
12/27/2010 12:47 PMPosted by Malvo
I think the obvious solution here would be for Blizzard to nerf our damage considerably.


This.
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90 Human Death Knight
9940
Frost DK speaking here...
The problem is not tank threat or DKs having too much threat generation. The problem is one of the below:

A. The tanks you are getting are bad and/or way undergeared compared to you.
B. You are not targeting the same target as the tank or spamming howling blast too much.
C. You are not giving the tank enough time to build up threat (sounds like this is not the case).
D. A combination of A, B, and/or C.


I do randoms with a warrior buddy of mine tanking and have zero problems with pulling threat off of him.

EDIT: Please don't take this as a personal "You are bad" attack of any sort, I'm merely trying to add constructive input to the conversation. My guess (from reading your OP) is that option "A" is your problem with the LFD.
Edited by Ellinore on 12/27/2010 1:48 PM PST
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17 Troll Warrior
100
12/27/2010 1:10 PMPosted by Slant
Again I'm talking 5man PUGs, so yes the tanks tend to be mediocre at best. But that's really not the point.

The point is that threat matters now, really matters, and being one of two classes without any form of active threat management severely disadvantages DKs and warriors. Saying "learn to work around it" isn't a valid answer when that workaround is turning off autoattack and /dance'ing at the boss.

That's what we're asking for-- a real way to "work around it". A button to press like feint, wind shear, cower, etc, to manage our threat.

To the rogue that posted immediately preceding, imagine if you did around 10% less damage but didn't have feint or vanish. That's where DKs and warriors are now.

I literally have to turn off autoattack 30s into each boss fight unless I get hand of salvation. That's not much fun.


You must not have read any of GC's posts about how they want threat to be something dps have to worry about to some degree in this expansion unlike the previous one. He said that dps should be wary of threat at the start of a pull and if they pull aggro and die it is their own fault for poor play. It is not intended for dps to be able to go all out from the second the pull starts. So if you are thinking you should be able to then your complaint will fall on deaf ears since Blizz's stated design philosophy on this matter is that threat matter. If all else fails find a tank that is more skilled than you so you may play in that manner.

It is the tank's job to produce as much threat as possible on appropriate targets (1st kill gets the most attention, etc) while it is the dps's job to do as much damage as possible without pulling threat, which can largely just means single target the first kill target without pulling aggro. By the time it dies the tank should have sufficient threat on the rest to allow you to go all out.

Like I said, Fury's problem is its ability to front load an absurd amount of damage CS and Death Wish create an 89% increase in damage done against bosses when overlapped. Most warriors do not understand that at all and will hit Death Wish and CS on the pull thus yanking aggro and possibly dying. They will then cry at the PuG tank, run to the forums and scream bloody murder that they need threat dumps or reduction. Then the good warriors show up and ask questions to find out that the whiners are stacking CS+DW and not paying attention to threat.

That is a self-control problem. No amount of help from Blizz will fix the real problem of poor play. All a threat dump would do is treat a symptom of a disease that will cause more problems down the line. It is better for everyone if those with poor play either learn to accept the consequence of poor play or learn to play better. It would fix countless problems without needing Blizz to retool some abilities to cover for their mistakes on a semi-regular basis.
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85 Orc Death Knight
6855

While DK's and Warriors while playing in their respective DPS roles may be able to frontload a ton of damage, this doesn't mean that a player SHOULD do this all the time in a PvE environment.

Basically it breaks down to playing your class smart. Once a tank has two stacks of vengeance up, there is no way you are going to pull agro.

Give the tank a little time.

It's the antsy-pants "I have to top the damage meter all the time" attitude that gets Wars and DK's killed. I have played as both Frost and UH DPS builds and with a competent tank and giving them a few seconds lead, I can press my buttons as fast as Runic Empowerment will allow me to and not pull agro.

Howling Blast will get you into all kinds of trouble as a Frost DK. You have to learn it's radius and when you should use the Rime proc on HB or IT. IT is not optimal use, but it's better than wasting the proc if you're surrounded by CCed adds.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4830
I haven't seen any real comparisons of damage in 5mans, but if DKs and warriors are overall higher than other classes then yes, they should be nerfed.

You people are attacking a straw man. I never said that DKs and warriors should be able to ignore threat. Do rogues, ferals, enhance shamans, etc, ignore their threat? No. They have buttons to press to manage it. There's gameplay there.

Another "you people"... You people talk about your tanks having no problems. Yes, your warrior friend has no problems, because he's a good player, properly specced and geared. Try a LFD PUG sometime. LFD is where this stuff gets real, folks.

"You people" number 3-- You people keep talking about howling blast. Please re-read the original post. I out-threat tanks single-target. I pull aggro off bosses. Please stop talking about hitting howling blast early on groups. Everybody understands that's bad. Warriors don't have howling blast, and they have threat issues too.

Damage has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Whether their damage is high or low, as long as threat is a concern at all, DKs and warriors need some form of active threat management in their toolboxes. The alternative is turning off autoattack, and that's not OK.
Edited by Slant on 12/27/2010 1:42 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
4830
Stop talking about howling blast.
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17 Troll Warrior
100
12/27/2010 1:37 PMPosted by Slant
Damage has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Whether their damage is high or low, as long as threat is a concern at all, DKs and warriors need some form of active threat management in their toolboxes. The alternative is turning off autoattack, and that's not OK.


Damage has everything to do with threat now. Virtually all abilities no longer have additional threat attached to them. The only one I can think of for warriors is Heroic Throw, but HS and the rest were stripped of their bonus threat. Threat is simply equal to damage now since things like stance modifiers have been removed.

So yes, damage has everything to do with threat now, specifically how you deal it: burst or sustained. If you are front loading your damage by overlapping powerful CD's at the start of the pull then yes, your lack of self-control will cause you threat issues. If you play somewhat conservatively on the first kill target (i.e. not blowing CD's or running the full rotation) then you shouldn't be having threat issues and by the time you get to the second target you should be able to go all out, or close to it. On a boss, let them go thru their rotation once, maybe twice, while you go 75% of max dps output then ramp it up to 100%. If the tank is even merely mediocre you shouldn't have a problem after that.

Playing smart in regards to threat is now a central part to being dps. You're going to have to learn it sometime or just find a tank that is more skilled than you and willing to put up with you. Those are your choices. You might as well make it now.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4830
12/27/2010 1:46 PMPosted by Jathine
Damage has everything to do with threat now. Virtually all abilities no longer have additional threat attached to them.

So you seriously haven't read the thread at all, then? Please re-read the OP then get back to us.

This thread is about active threat management, which everybody but DKs and warriors has.
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12/27/2010 1:42 PMPosted by Viktus
Give the tank 3 seconds before you Howling Blast spam. If you still pull aggro the tank is bad.


Bingo.
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90 Human Death Knight
9940
My reference to my warrior friend was merely to discredit any notion that DK threat is unmanageable and that tanks can't handle it.

Please see my edit to my original post, I decided to be more explicit in where I think the problem lies in your specific case.


"A. The tanks you are getting are bad and/or way undergeared compared to you."

The question you seem to be bringing up is, when this happens; that is, when you get a bad or undergeared tank, should you have to hold back on dps to avoid pulling aggro? Or should blizzard give warriors and DKs some sort of way to manage threat themselves in that situation without having to stop attacking?

Personally, I don't really care. I'm at the point where I just try to run dungeons with friends now.
Edited by Ellinore on 12/27/2010 1:57 PM PST
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