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Actually, I think part of my particular problem is that paladin threat generation feels very low. I have less problems with warriors and almost none with bears or DKs. Sadly something like 90% of LFD tanks seem to be paladins. Of course as DPS gear scales up tank threat will drop proportionally, and vengeance doesn't have time to stack in 5mans.
But (again) that's not the point of this thread-- the point is that in a world where threat really, really matters, being one of two classes without any way to manage your threat puts you at a severe disadvantage.
All I'm asking for here is a copy of wind shear, people.
Edited by Slant on 12/27/2010 1:58 PM PST
Those classes also do not have the front loaded damage of DK's or Warriors. It is the way DK's and Warriors do damage that gets bad players into trouble. They simply do not realize so much of their damage comes in such a short window and they can unload it right at the start of the pull. Not knowing that gets them into trouble.
Rogues, Ferals and Enhance have more ramp up time than Warriors and DK's in PvE. Yes, they have some threat dumps, but that isn't what is keeping them below the tank on the pull. They just simply set up their rotation and they are pacing themselves.
Another "you people"... You people talk about your tanks having no problems. Yes, your warrior friend has no problems, because he's a good player, properly specced and geared. Try a LFD PUG sometime. LFD is where this stuff gets real, folks.
You should not expect a PuG to play like a seasoned raider because chances are they are not. You have a level of expectation that does not have a place in LFD. You might run into a long time tank like myself (I have been tanking and dps'ing since Luci in MC), but that will be rare. You should expect mediocre at best players in a PuG especially when the content is as new as it is now.
"You people" number 3-- You people keep talking about howling blast. Please re-read the original post. I out-threat tanks single-target. I pull aggro off bosses. Please stop talking about hitting howling blast early on groups. Everybody understands that's bad. Warriors don't have howling blast, and they have threat issues too.
I have already explained most of Warriors' threat problems. It is too much front loaded damage without the self-control to not hit Death Wish.
I have been reading the thread. I think you simply don't understand that how you do damage is just as important as how much you do.
Warrior do not need any threat management abilities. Good warriors do not have threat problems when they are playing with an equally geared and skilled tank. This is because they know they have front loaded damage, and thus front loaded threat. By simply not hitting Death Wish or Deadly Calm and unloading the full rotation at the start of the pull they do not have any problems with threat barring any mob avoided or missed tank abilities very early in the pull.
I have read the OP.
You are talking about "waiting" and still pulling aggro in a PuG. You are playing a class that has a ton of front loaded damage with little ramp up time. Even waiting might not be enough with a tank that is less skilled than you. This is simply because how you do your damage based on your class mechanics.
You keep talking about Warriors and DK's needing threat management abilities beyond simply knowing how the class works and acting appropriately. It isn't some magical coincidence that the two melee classes with similar burst damage profiles are running into threat problems even after waiting. You can make up a ton of ground in terms of threat in a short period of time even after waiting. This is because of the way you do damage. The good warriors and DK's understand this, pace themselves better than most people and don't have threat problems while they have a similarly geared and skilled tank.
I disagree with what you're saying, but lets just say for a minute you're right.
Even if you're right DKs and warriors remain screwed, and this should be addressed in some other way than "get better tanks lol". I know guild groups are better, thanks very much. LFD PUGs are a huge part of the game now, and ignoring them is not productive.
Edited by Slant on 12/27/2010 3:16 PM PST
No, the issue here is that LFD pugs in general need to "Get better."
Don't make the game easier just because 100% of people aren't able to play good enough to hold threat.
Pures have the good aggro drops, generally. Feign Death, Vanish, Invisibility, Soul Shatter.
Pretty much everyone else either has a very weak aggro drop or doesn't have one at all.
Wind shear is 5% total threat now, it's great, so shamans are covered. Druids have 10% with cower, so they're more than fine. Paladins have 20% with hand of salv, so they're A-OK. It's just DKs and warriors that entirely lack threat management.
Pure aggro drops are certainly better, don't get me wrong, but of the hybrids only DKs and warriors lack them entirely.
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