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Admit it, Retribution has been messed up. There was a time, right before the Shattering took place, that our system worked. We did competitive DPS, and then they told us, "Exorcism is getting a 50% Damage buff" which equates to "LOL WE BLIZZ! WE REDUCE ALL YOUR DAMAGE AND MAKE HEALS CRAP!" It would have been nice to know this in the patch notes.
Sure I've heard that they're on vacation, but let's get this thread going, maybe they'll realize what they've done wrong. I'm sure they ignore a lot of this thread out of being embarassed and not knowing what to do, but let's give them some ideas.
1. The ramp up time is too long. Change Divine Purpose. Gives those abilities 100% Chance to generate Holy Power. No one likes a lottery system. And our ramp up time is far too long. This would help with survivability in PvP and our damage (which BTW, is decent, but still under-par compared to others with the same gear)
2. Increase the amount of spell-power we have by about 6-8%, please. Our judgments need to hit a little harder. Our Holy Wrath should as well. And our heals are laughingly weak for how much mana they take, or having to use our holy power to heal instead of using our main attack.
3. Fix Pursuit of justice, and add that passive chance to resist snares again. There are some classes we can't even catch up to, and with our ramp up time, it's silly how you expect us to beat certain classes.
4. Last but not least, fix our talent that is supposed to increase the buff duration of Inquisition. Please! PLEASE! It says it right in the tool-tip, and you've fixed other class talents, but this one goes un-noticed. I shouldn't have to think about keeping this up, or just going for the Templar's Verdict.
And just to wrap it all up. I'm not QQ'ing. I'm just posting this to give my thoughts on what should happen. I've been playing Paladin for a long time now. And I love the class to death. Feeling like a holy warrior. I do well, quite decent actually, but I can still tell things are flawed. I think what I'm asking for is understandable. It would not make us over-powered. In my opinion, the spec would just work like it should.
Okay, where to begin.. First off, maybe you should do something about your spec, and finish glyphing, because I have no clue what you think you're doing. Have you been in a raid yet? Our damage is fine. Maybe you would notice a damage increase if you were at least hit capped. I'm not really sure if you're bringing up these points on account of pvp or pve. Pvp-wise you cant really expect us to pew pew every single class we come against. What do you expect bliz to do, buff paladins till they destroy worlds like in 3.0? It really just seems like youre QQing. The only thing I can think of thats really flawed is our mastery; and even then, all it does is waste holy power. Edit: Also our guardian is broken to hell right now. That's somewhere they could start.
Edited by Misknocker on 12/27/2010 12:47 AM PST
The Guardian is working the 1% boost on our natural Strength not the total strength we have.
So with 173 Natural Str I get 1-2 bonus Strength every attack where I should be getting 36-37 Str bonus. Which is just a little bit below what should be happening. :)
Here is where the screw up happened. As you started you mentioned the put all dps into Exor and then nerf the other yes that was bad BUT only because EXOR is on a damn rng.
That being said, all the issues we have going on for the moment is all RNG related.
The problem lies in how much ret's damage has been spread out. I started this character fresh in shattering so i don't know even one bit about old Ret other than that they would !#*# on my poor enhance shaman 100% of the time. Rets are starting to look an awful lot like ol' enhance.
The damage ret does now is spread out through far too many abilities. All the worthless little build up abilites and worthless little seal effects have to be factored in and everything ends up balanced around a theoretical test of random procs and other such stuff.
You see, there has to be a choice. Either have a fun Pve rotation which some might interpret as a lot of buttons to press and procs to watch for, or have a faceroll pve rotation so that your pvp damage output happens in fewer but harder hitting attacks.
I hate to say it, but the current ret is more or less how it's going to stay unless the spec gets another rework.
I agree with everything Kaemrys said, except for the Hand of Freedom removing stun. AND we're on the same server. ^.^
And if you're lol'ing at my spec or something? Look at your gear, it's not very impressive either, I was pulling about 15k in Baradin Hold, but it was still less than classes with gear worse than mine. Why is it, that a mage with some greens and an Item level of 300 or so, beat out someone while pushing two buttons. Retribution has an unnecessary ramp-up. At least other classes can be at ranged while doing theirs, and it's nowhere near as long as ours. My spec is fine, all the talents I choose are useful in PvP and PvE. Not everything is cookie cutter, and I actually kick lots of ass.
I consider myself a pretty good Retribution Paladin, I can only imagine, that new people trying to play it must get discouraged seeing others do more damage with less effort. Maybe it would be better if they hand out these imminent nerfs, and we'll do better. If you think that ret is fine though, you need to take a long look at the forums, and then probably un-install WoW if you still think so. We've been shafted. Ignored. And now laughed at because of how we perform. I've been kicked off of arena teams or not even let out because "LOL GO HOLY! RET SUCKS THIS SEASON!"
Well guess what. NO! I'm gladly gonna take hold of my two-hander. Attempt to charge in with my 40% speed boost, and smash idiots. I still love ret, and I'm good at it, but there are obvious things that should change. Maybe I don't expect them to, but it doesn't hurt to hope.
EDIT: About the exo "buff", it hits less than it did when I was 80. And they nerfed all our other abilities without putting anything in the patch notes. It was kinda like a slap in the face.
Edited by Amahlia on 12/27/2010 6:27 AM PST
Really, to look at Retribution Paladin you have to look beyond the mechanics and into the metagame. Mechanically, Retribution Paladin works fine, more or less. You could argue that this ability should have a 100% chance of adding HoPo here, or that this ability shouldn't be so dependent on random chance there, but the core of the system, using Mana abilities to charge Holy Power to cause large chunks of damage, is sound.
What everything boils down to is the metagame, how Retribution's mechanics interact with the player and how the player is able to use those mechanics in the game at large. For now we're going to ignore PvP, mainly because I don't have much experience with PvP. We're not going to get into raiding either, because most people aren't raiding yet. Let's focus on Heroic 5-man Dungeons.
Heroics are hard now. Sure, a lot of it is that we're still working with the equivalents of ilvl178-200 blues, but the designs of the dungeons and their boss fights are also very differant, with far more emphasis place on group awareness and overall skill, rather than the DPS being hit-capped, the tanks being def-capped and everyone staying out of the fire. Fights are very reactive, requiring the DPS to keep positions and be aware of fight mechanics in order to stay alive. This isn't a problem for, say a Mage, Death Knight or Warrior who have fairly simple, predictable rotations. While they are being proactive in their rotation, they can allow themselves far better awareness since they are paying attention to fewer things. (Boss Mechanic 1, Boss Mechanic 2, Boss Health, Mana/Rage/Runic Power/Runes for optimal DPS; four things. Keep in mind that a human mind can only reliably keep track of 7-10 things short-term; that's important.)
Now let's look at what a Retribution Paladin keeps track of in the same fight: Boss Mechanic 1, Boss Mechanics 2, Boss Health, Cooldowns, Holy Power, Mana, Does Inquisition need to be refreshed?, Hand of Light, Art of War, is Hammer of Righteous usable? There are 9 different things that Retribution Paladin needs to be aware of in a given boss fight, that's stretching what the average human mind can keep track of. This means that the average Ret player can't keep track of everything during a boss fight. He needs to play well below his optimal level just to survive the fight.
While Retribution Paladin's core mechanics are sound, the way they are implimented needs to be streamlined. Blizzard needs to decide what they want Ret to do, because right now it needs focus; it's trying to do too many things at once and failing at all of them. Are we single-strike beasts that put up huge numbers every so often? Are we Holy Warriors who use unresistable Holy damage? Blizzard needs to pick one because trying to have us do everything in order to keep up with other classes is killing us.
EDIT: For some reason it decided that the enter key didn't mean skip a line and instead meant post while I was still composing, completed and edited the final post.
Edited by Kalva on 12/27/2010 7:45 AM PST
85 Draenei Mage
Some of us fotms have rerolled. My ret is 85 and so is my lock. I am following them with a frost mage and at least it is enjoyable to play although the demo lock was fun going from 80 to 85 even though it has a lot more buttons to push than a ret pally.
Edit: It also occurs to me that the lock and mage actually have rotations that feel smooth and attacks can be visuaized several moves in advance. I also like to spend my praying time asking for meaningful things like world peace rather than procs so I can actually do some damage. The one thing I do enjoy about rets is the quiet time after each fight. I just sit there an throw self heals until I get back to 100% health. I like the challenge of wearing plate that does not reduce melee damage.
Edited by Wasapally on 12/27/2010 8:05 AM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
There's no adapting to sub-par numbers. If a specific fight requires 10k DPS from each player and half the time you pull 7k and 13k the other half, the raid doesn't want to hear it and finds any other DPSer to fill your spot.
If by goods will adapt you mean go Holy/Prot like I did, then you're right.
It's been proven time and time again, people love lotteries. And not just in psych labs.
The problem is: it doesn't work if the reward is junk
between DP, zealotry and HoL ret is awash with HP. As such TV had to be kept small.
ret needs less HP so when you get some random HP it's exciting because TV hits really hard.
1. Chance to resist X mechanics are gone. No longer part of the game.
2. It's a designed weakness. Ret is lacking in mobility/snares.
3. PvP isn't designed for 1v1.
yes im only lvl 80 . but i have read tons of post and most of them say the same thing for a fix
.#1 ramp up time having only auto attack stacking the debuff too 5 dont work is needs to be all attacks or most . Every other class need's what 1 - 3 GCD for full debuffs for max damage thats GCD not auto attacks .
#2 CS and DS taken off same linked CD and damage needs buff on DS .
2 way you can fix this imo .
1 keep on same CD but make DS 100% chance for a HP and let it add the seal Debuff on all mobs it hits
2 unlink it from the same CD and buff damage some and 100% chance for HP
there is a 3rd but i need to go read some more on lunch break so dont have time to find it .
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