Dungeon queue should be performance-based

85 Undead Mage
4240
Heroics aren't even that hard :|
85 Draenei Shaman
5180
01/04/2011 8:50 PMPosted by Trelyrien
As my guildie pointed out, its easy to spot a nub. Ask in group if everyone has DBM. If someone says "huh" -- boot em.

Simple test.


DBM? For heroics? Seriously? Are you that bad of a player?
85 Tauren Death Knight
9755
01/04/2011 10:25 PMPosted by Zergetsu


Hammer of justice would like to have a word with you


HA, oh right you can talent into making it an interrupt.

But then what? Do you assume they took that talent? what if they didnt? What if they run with a group and said group always has a warrior who will keep up demo shout for them? Talents kind of useless then dont you think? So you force the assumption that hes picking up that talent? So now were even forcing respecs as well to complete these tests?

And what about the other HoJ talent? Do you assume they talent into the 40s CD to? Or do you make it a 60s timer?

Even assuming you take the first talent, hell lets even say you take the second talent to, you're still forgetting that the majority of "oh noes!" interrupts come FAR more often than every 40-60, making your HoJ interrupt pretty damn worthless to be blunt. The naga girl in ToT casts every ~12-15s, the shaman guy in there sometimes casts every 8s (making it even impossible to interrupt as a DK at times actually), the sun boss in HoO can cast sun orb more often than every 40s...

I'm sure I can come up with some more examples of why even though HoJ may interrupt, in the context of the ACTUAL game, its far to useless to count as an actual interrupt.
90 Blood Elf Priest
8365
01/04/2011 10:25 PMPosted by Zergetsu
Hammer of justice would like to have a word with you, better yet, Vindication does


Regardless, I agree with the general spirit of his post, which is, what is most important is not what to do when everything is going to plan, what is most important is what to do when SOMETHING is not going to plan.

What do you do when the tank didn't manage to pick up that add immediately? What do you do when that sheep breaks prematurely and that add is now up? What do you do when someone was knocked into a nearby pat?

I agree with what he said, quests like this for FUN would be great. But as some sort of TESTS, well, I'd rather not. I fear the player attitude would get even worse if something like this is implemented.
90 Tauren Druid
4510
Occulus had a lot more people quitting because it generally sucks as a dungeon. No tank was really needed. None of the bosses were hard, and the final fight could be won regardless of gear or skill in your role since nobody was doing their role. It's only saving grace was being fast to do.

12/28/2010 9:55 PMPosted by Lakrinda
Occulus still had people quitting before the first pull up to the day Cata released because they were too scared of the normalzing factor of the drakes. Again despite gear making it an absolute cakewalk.
85 Dwarf Shaman
9400
Wasn't this thread the partial idea behind the beginner tooltips?

The tooltips make it very clear what spells a person should be casting to be effective. But most people just jump into the game and turn them off.

More emphasis on these tips are needed imo. Yes I'm aware that they are pretty dumbed down, but they explain what to do to new players, or even players that have never played the class before very well.

/2cents
61 Goblin Warrior
730
If anyone has done the new quests in Azshara they might be familiar with the Archmage Xylems challenges. I saw this as an attempt by blizz to give lower lvls some insight into the kind of awareness that is required for doing raids. 5 mans is one thing..but seriosly..they're not that hard. How about getting off your high horses and giving the newbies a few tips insteading going for the 'Vote to Kick' button. I've seen horrible tanks become good tanks in one run with the right guidance. How hard is it to press a few number keys rly?!

Try organizing 25 ppl to all interrupt, move, cc, not die, kill etc at the right times. GG
Edited by Zeppi on 1/4/2011 10:37 PM PST
85 Human Death Knight
5530
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but I think a class coach or in-game walk through for each class would be beneficial. Specially something that teaches certain classes how to dps and hold cc at the same time, or move out of fires (shouldn't really need explaining) etc. It would also follow to have taking it a requirement as many stubborn people who are often the cause of problems in dungeons wont do it unless its required.

On the other hand, I am against having something explain what went wrong on a certain boss fights. Some of the fun is figuring out how each person needs to improve in order to take down a certain boss. I figure most of the problems have to do with people's attitude and unwillingness to listen to what others have to say. If more people are knowledge about their class then people will be more likely to realize what the real problem in a certain encounter is, and be more ready and willing to try harder to correct it.
85 Tauren Death Knight
9755
01/04/2011 10:33 PMPosted by Leyria


Regardless, I agree with the general spirit of his post, which is, what is most important is not what to do when everything is going to plan, what is most important is what to do when SOMETHING is not going to plan.

What do you do when the tank didn't manage to pick up that add immediately? What do you do when that sheep breaks prematurely and that add is now up? What do you do when someone was knocked into a nearby pat?

I agree with what he said, quests like this for FUN would be great. But as some sort of TESTS, well, I'd rather not. I fear the player attitude would get even worse if something like this is implemented.


This was pretty much what I was getting at. You arent teaching people how to play with a group in an MMO or how to handle bad situations or how to react to normal situations on the whole, and are in some ways actually just reinforcing negative behavior with these "quests" as well (again, the "forsake all else to make sure you interrupt," but if the group could survive the spell, but getting into range TO interrupt means you'll be in fire and die right after... thats not teaching you properly... thats just Pavlovian conditioning gone wrong... bell rings, rogue goes 'OH NOES MUST INTERRUPT' and then dashes through the fire to make sure he interrupts.. then dies.... and its not even HIS fault since the game TAUGHT him to do it)

85 Blood Elf Warlock
0
I think it would be pretty tough to implement an automated way to coach players. But I do think some tweaking could be done to the dungeon queue. There are other changes that could be made as well.

Something that would be nearly as useful as a "coach" (and much easier to implement) would be a description of each boss encounter built into the map somewhere. It would just need to list each ability that the boss uses and maybe how to avoid them. It could also contain a brief paragraph describing the general strategy. It doesn't need to be a complicated guide by any means... just a replacement for the obligatory tutorial that the leader has to type out for the people who haven't seen the encounter yet.

I actually like the idea of a relatively simple dummy test required for attunement as described by the OP. It could also be helpful to evaluate required gear on more than simply item level. Maybe looking at other stats as well could be useful.

And since the main reason people are asking for this problem to be addressed is that they are likely frustrated with the queue time they have wasted with fail groups, it would also be helpful to have some method of speeding someone's way back into a group if they fall victim to a group that disbands within a short time of starting and without downing a single boss. And it would also be nice to have harsher punishments for people who selfishly bail when they find themselves in a random that they don't like or after they don't get the drop that they want from the first boss.

I think that the reason something needs to be done can be illustrated by my experiences tonight. I waited through a 37 minute queue 4 times. Out of those 4 times, the first group disbanded after wiping once on the first boss, the second just disbanded immediately before even starting, the third group killed one boss and then disbanded after wiping on the next, and the fourth finally cleared a heroic. It took me over 2 hours in the queue (and another couple in dungeons) to get my random cleared. Also, over the course of the night, a tank left immediately after joining once. A healer left immediately after defeating a boss (and apparently not getting a drop) once. One group had a warlock that could only do 4500dps. Another group had a warrior equipped with several pieces of that BoE blue PvP gear.

I think that implementing the ideas above or something similar would reduce these unpleasant situations.
90 Undead Rogue
6940
I sort of agree, but then these players are not required to play the game. They can quit, and I believe that is the message Blizzard is giving them. They are not wanted in the game by most of the player base and by Blizzard themselves.

If they want to continue and be harassed by the players, not see very much end content, and now be evaluated to see if they are fit for random pugs then that is their choice.


That's a bold statement. Makes you sound pompous. If that's the case, then Blizzard should just make it to where you have to be this spec, with this average item level, wearing these exact pieces of gear. But they won't. They never will. And no matter how much end-gamers hate it, there's always going to be people who simply aren't as committed to the game as them, but still make their way into PUGs anyway. Like me.

I play casually. And I still get to PUG. :oP
85 Tauren Warrior
2765
The OP's idea is good but how about just make it so they have to fufill the role they have selected on normal difficulty before attempting it on heroic? i.e LFD will be locked as a dps for heroic Grim batol unless you have cleared it on Normal mode as a dps slot.

This does not solve a majority of the player quality problems however I have noticed most of my wipes in Heroics resulting in people simply not knowing the very basic boss mechanics or trash fights or what to CC/interrupt because they have either A: never been there before or B: they recently respecced or just now using their offspec and have no idea how to fully contribute with their new role.


Use General Umbriss for example. He utilizes a bleed effect on the tank on both Heroic and Normal...pretty easy stuff but, honestly, how many dps know about this? Probably very few, and there is almost no reason to know about it, why should they? It doesn't effect them or their rotation. However if said dps suddenly becomes a healer then knowing about that bleed effect will help him. Not knowing about it on Heroic will probably result in a tank death.
Maybe i'm the only who's suffering this. But a lot of time the issue is'nt even gear it's execution. Often times dps will stand in what they're not supposed to, get caught in an atk, or fail to interrupt. It's frustrating for me as a tank when i get stuck doing h-sc for 3 hours, because people can't avoid crystal storm, or interrupt force grip, or lack of dps on the shards. And often times you'll explain a fight but people still do what they want. I understand there's a human factor. But if you can't do what your supposed to, don't que.

It'd be nice if there was some sort of tracker, kind of like a failbot or raidbuff, or even a recount that keeps track of people failing to move out, breaking of cc other than tank, n etc. and based off this and ilvl you were grouped up. That way those who need to spend more time working it out, or those who don't care, won't take up the time of people actually trying to gear.
61 Goblin Warrior
730
It's called the human brain! Maybe they should just make a machine that runs our toons thru dungeons automatically..so no skill is required?
80 Tauren Death Knight
1010
01/04/2011 10:32 PMPosted by Delariae


DBM? For heroics? Seriously? Are you that bad of a player?


He's right, you really should be using all the Raid addons you need for a Heroic. They are meant to be preRaid anyway.


I agree you should be using a raid addon such as DBM it makes it a hell of alot easier.. However DBM won't move my character out of the way and kicking someone because they choose not to use it is pretty stupid... Try informing them that maybe they should try it out.. Having DBM doesn't make you a better player, simply watching the cast bar of the boss and looking what way hes facing will give you 1/2 the benefits of DBM anyway..

As for the everyone QQing about skill level and LFD the problem is generally you! You will never take the time to explain how things can be done better you simply stand there and say "its this guys fault L2Play scrub"

Your also the ones who insist on showing a DPS counter after every encounter as if it is some kind of race.. Some players cannot maintain high DPS and CC at the same time. Let them develop their skills explain to them how you think things can be done better. A player that wants to develop their skills will take on board what you say and try to improve the ones that back chat then you can kick..

When i play a healer i don't care much for the DPS of a group id much rather be able to keep the group alive while everyone is CCing and interrupting then be wiping or drinking at the end of every trash pull


We don't need a better LFD system we need a more supportive player base! Everyone stop acting like they're god because they can Vote to Kick and try helping people out.

You chose to play a MMO and this is what they are all about if you don't want to be a constructive member of the community STFU and only run with guildies or friends!

85 Human Priest
2455
We could implement something that was common practice for raids at the end of WotLK:
Have ridiculously high gear for a given run and need the achievement...

/end sarcasm

Seriously though, while I agree that some form of skill criterion is a good thing for heroics (see my post a couple of pages back), there needs to be some room to allow for new players, or those new to a particular class/role to learn.

Here's an idea, try to help/teach those that are struggling instead of kicking them. As some people have said, taking time to teach someone can be beneficial.
Edited by Alida on 1/4/2011 11:43 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
4590
01/04/2011 10:31 PMPosted by Kaire
I'm sure I can come up with some more examples of why even though HoJ may interrupt, in the context of the ACTUAL game, its far to useless to count as an actual interrupt.


But for a tank to interrupt even once can save a situation, when no one else can perform the interrupt. As a paladin it may be blowing your cd on a HoJ, or even possibly saving an avengers shield to interrupt, or hell arcane torrent for blood elves can sparingly be used as an interrupt (not always applicable). If a boss requires an interrupt for every cast of a specific spell sure a paladin tank wouldn't be able to do it on his/her own(but in a group they shouldn't have to), but I saw some paladins deny they even had an interrupt, and that is a sign you are not prepared for heroics. Of course there would be tuning for each class for this type of system and sure it wouldn't be perfect but I really do believe it would both educate and improve the quality of players in dungeon finder.
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