Avoidance vs Stamina...confusion here...

95 Blood Elf Paladin
9805
Okay, I was thinking things were supposed to change from Wrath to Cata.

In Wrath, Prot got defense (soft)capped, then went Stam after possibly becoming uncritable/"unhitable". In Cata, we were told that we needed (or, at least, could use) a more balanced or even avoidance leaning approach.

That is, that the nerfed healing meant that avoidance would/could be more valuable as it would save on your healer's need of mana and so you could fight for longer (which, as a tank, is always a good thing, right?)


However, I saw Xayton and some others speaking against a guy who was talking about more mitigation in a thread (I believe the operative phrase was something like, "You can't block dragon's breath.")

But I don't remember seeing this addressed in detail in Xaytons' tanking guide, though it's possible I missed it.


Is Cata just like Wrath in the sense of Stamina stacking being the thing to do? Did any of the changes make some mitigation stats more useful than before?

IF mitigation worked, I could see it being useful in Cata's less healer-friendly environment (where your healer's mana bar may become the new boss enrage timer.) But if not, I could see Stamina stacking maintaining it's dominance (health "blocks" everything, whereas most[all?] mitigation stats are limited to physical [or magic, in the case of Resistance, not that you'd have a plate wearer typically dealing with that sort of thing...])


But I haven't seen any real discussion on this in the stuff I've been reading here. I'm also somewhat new to the Prot thing as a main spec, so I'm curious how this is boiling down so far in Cata.

Is mitigation still mostly worthless, or does it have value beyond being "unhitable"?
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86 Tauren Paladin
12480
I've been looking around for a while about stat priorities, and I haven't really found anything except that mastery tops for avoidance and most people seem to prefer stamina. I can't figure out how stamina, mastery, and armor compare, though. Or threat stats, for that matter.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
11005
i was wondering also, my block is about 26% (with mastery), dodge 14% (which used to be around 22-25 in wrath) and parry 15% also used to be in the 20's

everything i equip to bring these stats up barely moves it.
so im not sure whether to start throwing stam gems in or go with dodge/parry again.
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85 Tauren Paladin
9645
With more HP, Healer need to heal you more, which is really bad because they can go oom really fast, They also don't have enough haste and SP, Spirit.
With more avoidance, less dmg taken, easier for healer to do their job.
Parry/Dodge get dismishing return. Block doesn't. So mastery is better on Avoidance list.
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86 Tauren Paladin
12480
Alright, I found some stuff while experimenting and whatnot. First of all, stamina provides quite a bit of health (at least at these gear levels) per itemization point compared to avoidance. Additionally, since vengeance is capped at 10% of our health, it effectively becomes more threat in high vengeance situations.

I haven't found anything about where armor factors in yet, but I know it's not a bad stat at all for us.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4275
Personally, I am starting to value avoidence and mastery and whatnot. My main stat is still stamina. I am matching all of my socket bonuses with Stam, Stam/mastery, Stam/parry. I am reforging the highest avoidence piece on each of my gear into mastery.

Unbuffed I am sitting at 145k stamina, 47% block, 11% parry, 10%dodge.

I have noticed that my health is less spikey and allows healer to let me sit at about 60%. When I drop below about 30% I pop the 20% reduction CD, my healer tolkd me that they like me. :)

That just how I went about things, everyone is entitled to do as they please. haha
Edited by Failos on 12/24/2010 11:28 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4770
Alot of it has to do with mindset. What Zuzutank said about more hp means you heal more making the healer oom, is flat out rediculous.

Alot of healers prefer their tanks to load stam and have less reliance on mitigation as it makes damage feel more predictable and less spikey. It gives them the feel of comfort and allows them to have a bit more rythym. Hopefully, no one reads less reliance on mitigation as no mitiagtion cause that is not the intention.

The opposing view generally comes from tanks who believe mitigaiton is king, they think that if I dodge, block or parry enough the healer won't have to heal as much, which is true but it makes the predictability of healing you alot greater and makes your damage feel more spikey as your mitigation stats are affected by DR. So your healer may get comfy thinking you are taking no damage then you get hit like a truck for 3 straight swings.

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85 Human Paladin
0
12/24/2010 11:29 AMPosted by Romocopx
Alot of it has to do with mindset. What Zuzutank said about more hp means you heal more making the healer oom, is flat out rediculous.


Speaking as a healer, I'd rather my tanks not take as much damage. Holy paladins are still the closest thing to a mana battery healer, but I cannot fill an endless pool of health.

Let's talk about "spikey" damage from avoidance/mitigation for a minute. The plain fact is, if an attack is unmitigated, it's going to do the same amount of damage whether you have 100k health or 200k health. I'm still going to have to heal the exact same amount for that single hit. However, let's say that, instead of taking that hit, you dodged it. I don't have to heal a thing, which is better for MY mana consistency. Or, let's say you blocked it, and so took less damage. That's STILL better for my mana pool than just taking the hit.

In Wrath, I was a fire truck filling a leaky bucket. Yes, I would eventually run out of water, but in the meantime, I could keep that bucket full. Now, I'm more of a garden hose. I can fill a whole pool, but it's not as easy, takes more time, and DEFINITELY takes more time if there's some dude doing bellyflops to knock the water out constantly.

Please, for the love of waffles, tanks, don't stack stamina.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8820
i think this attitude of either or is whats confusing people.

both are good, and i think balance between them is essential.

stamina doesn't have the massive precedence that it did during wrath but its still incredibly important. no matter how potent our mastery is ( and our mastery is very very potent) the only thing that is going to save us from those unblockable, unmitigatable magic hits is going to be our raw health pools

that said, with a very large health pool and our tendency to wobble around 60-70% for most fights healing us to full becomes that much harder for healers.
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85 Human Paladin
6435

Please, for the love of waffles, tanks, don't stack stamina.


You shouldn't make such a broad statement that isn't 100% true.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
xayton, is that a 36 stamina kit on your chest while 55 stamina enchants are cheap

tut tut
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85 Human Paladin
6435
12/24/2010 2:19 PMPosted by Maenetus
xayton, is that a 36 stamina kit on your chest while 55 stamina enchants are cheap

tut tut


It is, I keep forgetting to change it.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
no no no the proper response is too make fun my my enchants, it's easy, I'm using some dubious ones
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90 Dwarf Paladin
0
Didn't read whole thread, but will offer my thoughts on the subject.

Blizzard has designed gear so that there are three classifications of statistics. Primary, Secondary, and Stamina.

Primary: Strength, Agility, Intellect. You will only find one, and only want one on your gear pending spec.

Secondary: Haste, crit, dodge, parry, mastery, expertise, spirit, hit. These you can mix and match or stack as you please.

Stamina: Stamina

It is designed so that you will never be picking any of the three classifications OVER the other, but you will be choosing within the classifications. In other words you will have to choose between strength or agility, but never need to choose between strength over haste. Between mastery and dodge, but nothing needs to be chosen over stamina.

The only time when this gets funky is with gems and enchants, and most importantly, trinkets. With trinkets, your best bet is to always take the highest ilvl. Always. With gems, aim for your socket bonuses, they rock now. Enchants are a wash, but they usually are never deal breakers either way anyway. Imo, Tankadin mastery is beast.
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92 Human Paladin
3020
It's a tad more complex than that, unfortunately. The topic of the discussion is what secondary stats, gems and enchants to select as I see it. We always have access to strength, and stamina is basically normalized to be directly proportional to ilvl.

Hit cap and expertise soft cap given for a moment, and with DPS stats not being terribly useful to us anyways (except for as part of a threat set, in which case expertise hard cap, crit, and enough haste to get us below 2.0 attack speed become passable), that leaves dodge, parry, and mastery as viable secondaries for us.

So, do we gem and enchant for stamina, or dodge, parry and mastery? That's the real situation at heart. The way I see it, anyhow.

The answer IMO is "yes". Grab a couple pieces for each pertinent slot (legs, chest, and helmet work all right for this since they have the widest range of available enchants and usually have the most gem slots, and cloak is great for this also) and stack stamina on one piece and avoidance on the other. Interchange them as is important for the given encounter: stamina on fights heavy in unavoidable damage, and avoidance on trash, add-heavy fights, and physical-heavy fights.

At least, that's the conventional wisdom on the topic.
Edited by Sarannah on 12/24/2010 3:02 PM PST
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85 Tauren Paladin
9645
Just ask yourself some question and you will know what is best for you:
-Do you healer have enough SP, Haste, Spirit... to top you up over 70% for 8-10 mins fight?
+Yes>>> Stam and your healer have no problem with it.
+No>>> Avoidance please and your healer will be happy.

The other thing with Vengeance:
I know I'm only 4/12 Cata atm but I never see my Vengeance go over 70% on any fight. So more stam for more SP isn't that great.

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90 Draenei Paladin
10210
I believe the operative word for how much stamina you require is "Enough"

You can't ignore stamina, because you won't have enough, but you can't ignore avoidance either, or your healers will hate you since all you are is a damage sponge.

I feel like, for the current content, in my current gear i have "enough" stamina. I still gem for it, and I still enchant for it (when there are no other options) but otherwise, i take avoidance (specifically mastery) wherever I can get it.
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86 Blood Elf Paladin
0
As I understand it, healers have it a bit rough in Cata. All healer specs have a tendency to go OOM. As such, stacking Stam is extremely inadvisable -- it'll just make the healers' job more difficult. Stacking avoidance stats is the way to go.

However, the priority amongst the avoidance stats is now different for Warriors and Paladins, from what it used to be. It is now extremely advisable that they stack as much Mastery as possible, to boost their Block, and only if Mastery isn't available should they stack Dodge/Parry (and only if no avoidance stat is available should they stack Stam). The reason for this is simple -- it is theoretically possible for the Mastery stat to get very, very high indeed, whereas it seems pretty obvious that WoW's famous diminishing returns are going to keep Dodge and Parry comparatively low.
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