Avoidance vs Stamina...confusion here...

91 Blood Elf Paladin
9375
Mainly I just want to be able to tank for my friends in my little guild. So while this may sound like a "bad tank" mindset, I'm trying to get enough of an understanding to do that, but min-maxing isn't my goal. To do this, I want to understand the minimums I should shoot for, then I can mix and match on top of that to experimentally see what works. Here's my admittedly basic understanding of tank stats for Paladins at present:

Armor - Reduces damage, physical only, comes on gear.
Stamina - More health, no reduction in damage taken.
Strength - Threat increase via damage, increases block somehow[?]
Dodge/Parry - Full mitigation or no mitigation, physical only, suffer DR [same rate...?]
Block/Mastery - Partial mitigation, physical only, no DR.
D/P/B-M - Needs to combine to 102%-ish.
Expertise - Need to have 16 +SoT glyph for 26 total as a good min. 55 at max.
Hit - Enough to get...is it +8% still? Afterwords useless: Reforge.

Other (READ - not really tanking stats):
Haste - Reduces GCD, not really useful since we lack any "spamable" ability.
Crit - Spiky damage potential, spiky healing (WoG) potential. Useful for threat, but unreliable.
Agility - Increases armor/dodge in some minor ways.
Intellect - Larger mana pool (useless thanks to JotJ/W), SP, slight spell crit increase.
Spirit - Less downtime between fights if you forgot food/bandages[?], mana regen (useless thanks to JotJ/W)


But, I also know as a healer in Wrath (especially early on, before people geared up), mitigation tanks I liked healing better. It was easier to heal a tank that took less damage than a tank that soaked it up like a sponge. "Meatshield" tanks are great for big hits or magic fights, but they sap mana. Did then, do even more now from what I understand of Cata healing.

And with the healer mana pool being the new boss enrage timer, it should go without saying that mitigation has risen in priority. However, by how much? Due to it still being limited against magical foes and all.



As I see it, the Tankadin "minimums" are as follows:

16 Expertise (for 26 with glyphed SoT)
+8% hit
102ish% dodge+parry+block*

*This can be gained most quickly by reforging dodge/parry into mastery. Since I believe dodge and parry have about the same DR, this means you're most optimal when you have them roughly equal to each other, and since block doesn't suffer DR, dumping extra hit/expertise into mastery is the better investment on your reforging block once both of those have reached their minimum caps.

I'm not sure what a good minimum to health/stamina is, but I would guess as long as you aren't being one or two shotted, you PROBABLY have enough for the bare necessities, but if you find yourself dying in less than 5 seconds a lot, you probably need more.



I understand my rotations, I just want to get an idea on gearing priority. I was thinking a balanced approach was best, but reading comments in other threads has me thinking that the guys "in the know" believe stamina stacking is still the way to go.

I know as a healer in Wrath, that wasn't really nice from a healer perspective, and I'm sure in Cata it's probably worse. However, what isn't good may still be the best available option. So I'm wondering if that's the case or not.


So my question is thus:

In a nutshell, are my minimums correct? And (regardless), should I lean towards mitigation or raw health once the bare minimums are reached, or is a balanced approach better? (And if so, weighted towards one or the other, or balanced across them all?)
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1 Draenei Priest
0
Its obvious that either you need to focus on all avoidance or all stamina. There is no middle ground there is no room for debate. And all encounters are so tightly balanced, and gems and chants provide so much stats that sub-optimal gearing means instant wipes.


All the stamina tanks like Paragon's were obviously carried and the same can be said for those top 10 guilds with avoidance tanks.

My preferred way of gearing is the only correct way and the rest of you are all skill-less scrubs!!! You should all delete your accounts now in shame.


And the correct answer is gem spirit. Hp5 is the Pwn!
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65 Draenei Paladin
1000
How much of the damage(in cata)is magic damage, and how much of that is mitigated by dodge/parry/block? I'm not arguing I'm asking a serious question in hopes of learning something for my future escapades.
Edited by Xavinus on 12/24/2010 10:03 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
2010
Mastery provides by far the best return for investment on your avoidance gems. I don't know if it softcaps, but im up to 50% and it's still providing extremely consistent and amazing damage reduction. I'm having extremely good results with my set up now, having switched it from full focus parry because it was too inconsistent.

There is a lot of magic damage, but no gem can help against that. If you are gonna die to nukes with 140k HP's you are gonna die with 150k. The healer would be in a huge hole and more hit points certainly wouldn't help at least in group situations. Gemming STR for more effective WoG/Agro does help a bit though.
Edited by Dalnoth on 12/24/2010 11:14 PM PST
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91 Blood Elf Paladin
9375
12/24/2010 8:21 PMPosted by Blasphamy
Its obvious that either you need to focus on all avoidance or all stamina. There is no middle ground there is no room for debate. And all encounters are so tightly balanced, and gems and chants provide so much stats that sub-optimal gearing means instant wipes.


All the stamina tanks like Paragon's were obviously carried and the same can be said for those top 10 guilds with avoidance tanks.

My preferred way of gearing is the only correct way and the rest of you are all skill-less scrubs!!! You should all delete your accounts now in shame.


And the correct answer is gem spirit. Hp5 is the Pwn!


Sarcasm is wonderful, but does little to answer the questions at hand. <_<
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65 Draenei Paladin
1000
Thinking about vengeance, stamina is more threat and avoidance is less threat. I am correct in this train of thought?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3040
12/26/2010 11:49 AMPosted by Xavinus
Thinking about vengeance, stamina is more threat and avoidance is less threat. I am correct in this train of thought?
Avoidance provides no threat bonus, yes.
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85 Human Paladin
5845
Raw stamina is always going to be most important imo. Dodge and parry suffer from diminishing returns don't forget.

I'm going for mastery gear and mastery/stam gems if the socket bonus on something is solid. So far I've come to the conclusion that this is the hierarchy (correct me if I'm wrong):

Hit rating
Mastery
Stamina
Expertise rating
Parry
Dodge

Been reforging almost all my gear for hit and expertise rating because I am struggling to get to the raid hit cap due to picking up gear that has mastery on it.

I think thats fairly accurate. Spell damage really hurts in Cata, I've lived through flame shock and that lightning shock in heroic throne of the tides because bad dps can't interupt so having a big health pool will always be a benefit.
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85 Human Death Knight
3015
How about pre-mastery, like my level. Sittin on about 23.3k hp, 31% combined dodge/parry, 54% armor, self buffed. Good balance of hp/avoid or too far in one direction?
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85 Human Paladin
1970
12/26/2010 12:23 PMPosted by Azgahal
Hit rating
Mastery
Stamina
Expertise rating
Parry
Dodge


Can someone confirm this stat heirarchy?
Obviously stop that stat once capped.
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100 Human Paladin
14865
Hit rating
Mastery
Stamina
Expertise rating
Parry
Dodge


Can someone confirm this stat heirarchy?
Obviously stop that stat once capped.


You should eliminate threat stats from that list of priorities and move them to a separate list. Really, there's two separate stat priority lists, and I'd say they go like this:

THREAT LIST:
1. Hit
2. Expertise
3. Strength
4. Everything else (ie: don't bother...things like crit and haste, although stamina applies in Vengeance-capped situations only)
Reforging Priority:
---If you have excess hit, reforge to expertise. If you have more than 26 expertise and are not hit capped, reforge to hit. If you have 55 expertise and are hit-capped, reforge to mastery. If you're doing fine on threat, and are hitcapped, reforge expertise above 26 to mastery.

SURVIVABILITY LIST:
1. Mastery (until dodge+block+parry+basemiss = 102.4%)
2. Stamina
3. Dodge + Parry (depends which you have less RATING of at the time)
4. Resistances (I don't think there are any new resistance gems though, and this would be situational anyway).
Reforging Priority:
---Dodge/Parry -> Mastery (this is due to diminishing returns on those stats. You lose very little dodge and parry percentages to gain a lot of block percentage. Only to a certain point though, I think it's ~9% dodge and 10% parry or something).


Let me elaborate some. Even on fights with HEAVY magic damage hits, you only need enough stamina to live through it and the follow-up melee swing together. The vast majority of damage even in those type of 'dragon breath' fights is physical melee swings from the boss. That is why the non-diminishing stat Mastery is at the top of the list. Dodge and Parry DR so hard that you might as well reforge them away to Mastery.

In addition, you must consider both lists SIMULTANEOUSLY. A tank with 0% hit and 0 expertise will have a tough time with threat, and more importantly, consistency, even with high Vengeance. A tank with 55 expertise and 8% hit, and a ton of strength but having not gone for mastery may have a harder time surviving and/or be harder on the healer's mana.

Furthermore...DON'T STACK ANYTHING. If you're stacking a stat to the exclusivity of all other stats, you aren't going to be as effective. This includes stamina. Hybrid gems are your friend.
Edited by Dekkar on 12/26/2010 9:26 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
5505
Early on I focused heavily on Mastery (as the primary stat) and found it lacking. I've recently moved to a more Stam, Dodge, Parry scheme.

I've been keeping avoidance between dodge & parry around a combined 25% minimum while testing out some dps pieces just for fun for 5 mans. With reforging you can make some interesting mixes for gear... but it's certainly not ideal for raids. During this I've kept block @ 30% minimum and increased health-pool to about 150k (soft buffed).

I had previously started with about 15% dodge/parry (combined) and something closer to 40% block and only about ~120k hp... this was crazy hard on most healers that were still playing WOTLK style healing.

Increasing the dodge/parry combined value to 20% made a huge difference, and even more so at 25%, so I'm leaning more in that direction for 5 mans... but there is a lot of magic damage to deal with as well, so increasing the HP is pretty important as most folks have forgotten to add "kick" back to their hot-bars.

I have a feeling once I've fully fleshed out a true prot set of 346+ ilvl gear, and pugs remember how to interrupt spells & as well as cc, and healers get a better understanding of their rotations and limitations, then all will be well. For now, it's a crazy balance of dodge/parry/stam, with mastery kept at a 30% block minimum.
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100 Human Paladin
13310
I too value avoidance to help out the healers.

In the past the idea of stacking stamina was to survive long enough for the healers' heals to land on you.
Stamina was also preferred by healers over avoidance because having high dodge and parry gave you a spiky damage, sometimes you take no damage, sometimes you do.

But now in Cata, healer mana is painfully limited, so avoidance will help them out a lot. Someone already mentioened that more stamina means the healer has to heal you more, making them run out of mana faster.

It's true that you still cannot block, dodge or parry magic attacks, but no boss fight is purely magic (none that I can remember), and bosses still melee you. Reducing physical damage from the boss melee will help healers out.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12050
12/27/2010 8:37 AMPosted by Goldbrand
It's true that you still cannot block, dodge or parry magic attacks, but no boss fight is purely magic (none that I can remember), and bosses still melee you. Reducing physical damage from the boss melee will help healers out.

With the exception of a very few select fights, tanks take far more damage from physical sources than they do magical. Even in the spots where magic damage is heavy, it's the combination of a big magic attack + melee swing that hurts.

Pre-Cata, that would have a risk of killing you. Nowadays, it's just stings like a #*!%@.

The days of stamina being the end-all-be-all of tanking stats is over (and good riddance!)
Edited by Tainn on 12/27/2010 8:45 AM PST
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