Topic PVE Holy Pally Reforging/Gemming
What are you reforging to?
What are you reforging away from?
I'm running heroics and starting 10-mans soon. I'm all done buying justice point gear. I've got 4 epics.
Right now, the only reforging I've done is putting Spirit on a couple items that don't have Spirit on them. This is just to make due till they get replaced by spirit gear.
I've armory'd all the pallys on my server that are in the top guilds, and they're all over the place!
Let me know if you like these orders of importance.
Gems: Spirit > Int > Haste
Reforging: Haste > Crit > Mastery
That being said. Should I reforge all Mastery to Haste? Or split reforging Crit and Mastery to Haste?
I'm not having any healing or mana issues, just wanna get a little closer to 'god mode'. :)
I would gem Int over other stuff, including spirit. I, however, am bonkers and really like getting socket bonuses even when straight int is superior.
As for reforging, my goal is for every item to have spirit. So for the few unfortunate pieces I have that haven't been replaced yet, I turn the crit or mastery into spirit.
Once there's spirit on the thing, haste. Crit or mastery, doesn't matter, they all become haste.
That said, crit and mastery aren't bad. They're just less reliable than haste.
Edited by Koronth on 12/29/10 3:56 PM (PST)
For what it's worth...
I'm reforging from Mastery into Haste as much as I'm able. When the piece in question has Haste and Mastery, I reforge the Mastery into Crit. If the piece has Haste and Crit, I leave it alone.
TL;DR = Haste > Crit > Mastery
As for gemming, I don't have many pieces with sockets yet, but I plan to gem as much Int as possible, going for Int/Spirit when I need a blue and Int/Haste for yellow. I haven't looked at socket bonuses much yet, so I'm not sure how often I'll need hybrid gems. Hell, I haven't really looked at metas yet either. Off I go to wowhead!
85 Dwarf Paladin
Edited by Thoreg on 12/29/10 5:45 PM (PST)
Basically the first thing you want to do is to get your haste cap. Get your haste rating to 1019. That is the soft haste cap. Reforge anything you can to reach that number. Once you do, stack spirit. Paladin healers have a major mana issue. Not sure about others, but we need our spirit to be able to do anything. That issue is probably not going to be addressed anytime soon, unless there is something out there that i am not aware about. I am doing heroics myself, and find that the more gear i get the easier it is becoming. I assume you are using Seal of Insight as your main seal with the Glyph to boot. If not, use it and get the glyph. I am also finding that hitting judgment with that seal up is helping as it adds 15% of your base mana back. Plus it gives you your 9% faster casts. As for gems, I would probably get int/haste if you need the haste or go int/spirit or straight intellect. I would probably try to get socket bonuses too. It may not be much, but its better than nothing.
So the order of stats is the following:
Haste (til 1019 cap) -> Spirit -> Mastery/Intellect (your choice) -> Crit Chance
As little Mastery as possible. One thing that people often neglect is that you need enough crit to keep Conviction up for the majority of fights or you're losing a huge amount of healing. Crit also increases Infusion of Light procs which, while not necessary, are certainly very helpful in some situations and can greatly increase throughput.
Is he maybe talking about when diminishing returns pretty much means you are 'capped' (adding more haste will do little to nothing)? Just guessing, I have no idea... I'd like to know though. =)
I believe that under full buffs, the GCD cap is 3489 haste rating, or ~27.24%. 1019 was the old rating cap. Currently at 85 1019 haste rating only translates to about 8% haste. That being said, gearing for heroics I am going to reforge mastery and possibly crit, to haste. With new spells like Holy Radiance, LoD and PotI all proccing Conviction, this reduces the amount of crit I want.
As for gemming, I'm enjoying socket bonuses right now. I need 2 Yellow gems for the Ember Meta; that leaves Int/Haste or Int/Mastery. I currently have a mastery gem as one of mine but I do intend to change it to Int/Haste when I get my new gloves. Just my two cents! Please correct me if I'm mistaken on the Haste math!
Based on my own fairly extensive look at stat balance for Holy, here is my breakdown.
Intellect - Its always better. Period. Try to gem it, enchant it, and everything else everywhere possible. For socket bonuses, if its intellect, go for it. If you trade 10 intellect for 20 of another stat, its worth it, but you should probably avoid picking up a bit of spirit for a loss of 20 intellect. In the end as long as you always try to get more of this, you're doing fine, you can't really go wrong.
Spirit - You need it to cast more spells. At some point you may find yourself never running low on mana, and if that happens in the highest intensity healing you generally ever encounter (really tough bosses, or against difficult enemies during quests, or wherever) then you probably don't want any more. Spirit can be forged into, but it will be present on almost all of your gear, so you may just be better off adjusting other stats than reforging into and out of this one. If you have a lot of gear without spirit and you find yourself occasionally going OOM before a fight is over, you may want to reforge into some in that case.
Haste - You will want some Haste. It helps you react more quickly to damage intake, sure, but more importantly it boosts one of your only sources of strong AOE healing - Holy Radiance. The first "plateau" you want to hit with Haste is about 6% (774 rating) which nets you 13 ticks from your Holy Radiance when used (assuming you have all other appropriate haste buffs). Its a good level of haste to start with anyway, so I'd say shoot for this and hold here for some time. Its certainly not WRONG to continue using more haste, but the other stats have value too - don't avoid them because they're a lower percentage point.
Crit / Mastery - These two somewhat go hand in hand. Both boost your output without costing you any more mana, both have their ups and downs, and both support the other almost equally well. Basically, as far as I and most others can tell, you should try to keep these about even for maximum effect. Going with one or the other isn't wrong, or bad, but you may gain more from using both than if you chose to be more focused.
And thats about all there is to it.
TLDR: Int > Spirit > Haste to 6%+ (more in higher tiers of gear) > Crit / Mastery
You can take a look at my stats to see what I am talking about, balance wise.
Yeah...A) he was talking about the "soft cap" as in anything over this number will help you, but not to the point it was helping you before so its wiser to go for other favorable stats. B) 1019 would have been the cap back at 80. I Do not know if 3489 is the right number or not but sounds about right. I also know that with it being the first tier of content in the x-pac it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to hit that cap, especially considering if you do manage to pull it off you would gimp the S out of your other stats.
That said, I originally went for all haste items, even if they were lacking INT and had mediocre spirit, once the changes to ToR were made and you could no longer get charges of HP from HL while simultaneously nerfing LoD (amount healed by 40%) i think alot of us were lost as to how important haste really was.
At this moment in time, even with HR, LoD, we are still mainly being used as tank healers with raid healing support. So mastery, if you think about it, while tank healing, your bubble will either get overwritten, or immediately absorbed by a boss hit. Sure, its a nice buffer, but not nice enough that i will sacrifice haste, spirit, or even crit for.
If the socket bonus is spirit, or int, go for the bonus if it is strong enough, and most the cata stuff has way nicer bonuses than WotLK gear. Imho Haste/Spi for reforging. Reforge mastery into either or, if no mastery exists reforge crit. NEVER reforge haste or spirit.
With that said i will be exaulted with dragonmaw and there is that 359 neckpiece that has crit and mastery on it with no haste or spirit, i will have to choose one or the other. When something like that occurs go with what you feel you need more.
But yes, as important as haste is, and as much as spirit is needed, imho, INT is still king so stack it as much as possible, your heals will heal more (you can get away with more HL than usual) and you get more mana return from DP (especially if glyphed)
Hope this helped!
I've been pretty casual about my gemming so far, after doing some raiding it hasn't blown up in my face yet. I generally just follow the socket colors. I use int/spirit/haste gems and some spirit enchants but i'll probably end up switching those out since im nearing a point where I can use my big spells with almost no concern for mana.
Im still deciding between crit and mastery, im not really impressed with our mastery atm as it doesn't really mitigate that much damage being thrown out. I think on my malodrak kill it absorbed just shy of 200k. Can be sure of the number but in comparison to damage taken by the raid in general..... yeah it was certainly quite far apart.
Edited by Captamerica on 12/30/10 9:50 AM (PST)
I was Gemming for int, and using socket bonuses for with hybrid gems.. haste and spirit until this week. Then reforging haste.
I was feeling like my mobility as a tank healer on certain raid fights was a little low, so I went 100% haste this week. I gained about 2k more HPS and was able to spot heal where needed more without losing a tank. I am currently at almost 18% haste.
The biggest change this made to my rotation is that I almost never need to cast Flash of light to save someone now. A shock and a holy light are now fast enough to do that job. Where before, the person would have probably died during cast time had I tried this before. Also, I am getting more holy lights in on tank heals which drops my need to cast Divine light as much.
The changes to my rotation actually make me mana efficient enough to not miss the 8k drop in my mana pool or the 50mp5 while casting I lost for this change.
I know this isn't he most popular route but I like quick healing.. To each his own.
I will say that I divine plea about 2 times a fight and I also LoH every fight at least once for mana. I also cycle hand of sacrifice and judge/melee during my regen phases. The use of these spells have allowed me to not focus on spirit as much.
BTW mastery blows... spent 5k earlier in the week going almost all out mastery to try it. Its to sluggish to be practical in the movement of cata raiding. Frequent 2 sec casts are just something I don't have time for, and our absorbs we gain aren't large enough and don't last long enough to give me time between heals I need to move.
Thanks for all your help guys!
I'm reforging away from Mastery, and toward Haste now. My goal is pretty much to have spirit, and haste on every item, then to Crit, if spirit and haste are already on the item.
As for the haste debate, I'm currently sitting at 1594 haste(12.45%). My question is, what are we trying to cap? What spell are we trying to get to what cooldown? Since the ToR nerf, nobody is spamming HL, so were not trying to get it to 1.5sec cast anymore. I didn't think about the HR tick. That's good thinkin!
I recently moved to the Holy Shock glyph and the 5% Crit makes my Infusion of Light proc happen more often. This also makes me not want to reforge away from Crit.
I'm currently gemmed to match socket bonus... Spirit -> Int -> Haste
I'm getting a couple more epics soon, and I'll be changing order to... Int -> Spirit -> Haste
Its still highly debatable how much Mastery is worth. This bandwagon of Haste has got to stop, though. NEVER has it been good enough to stack over everything else but Spirit and Intellect... Haste has benefit that varies based on its amount, and it does continue to be a strong stat, but it has some big downsides...
Please, if you want to be the most efficiently geared, follow my advice. Haste to 774 rating (6%, 13 ticks of HR) then Crit and Mastery in various amounts. For this tier you're going to have a hard time beating that setup, I think.