Topic 10 or 25 man's which is harder and why?
Edited by Jaxarale on 1/5/11 10:46 PM (PST)
I started this thread so we could get the trolls out of our recruiting thread... Seems people do not know the meaning of "there's a time and place for everything" Well this is you time and I have given you the place!! Have at it boys and girls.
Edited by Yozda on 12/31/10 9:57 AM (PST)
Thanks for starting this thread. It's never pretty to see a recruitment thread get trolled.
Honestly, though, I'm surprised this debate is even necessary and I agree completely with Jax. thought it was fairly obvious to most people that 25mans are far, far more difficult. Indeed, that's exactly the way it's supposed to be. As Blizzard said months before Cata came out, the inherent difficulty of recruiting and organizing 25 competent people makes bigger raids harder, which is why 25mans drop more loot and give more Valor points.
As far as I can tell, this is all working as intended. Blizzard also claimed* that they would balance 10m and 25m difficulty (in the sense of tuning and mechanics) to be as close as possible. Thus, their intention was to acknowledge the problems of getting 25 decent people together, while making the encounters themselves as similar as possible for both raid sizes.
Based on the available data, they have succeeded. Most 25man raid encounters in T11 will see 1-2 tanks, 17-18 dps, and 6-7 healers, whereas most 10man guilds will use 1-2 tanks, 5-6 dps, and 2-3 healers. As aggregate data updated to World of Logs demonstrates (http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Blackwing_Descent/ and http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Bastion_of_Twilight/), the median DPS and heals for kills in both raid sizes are almost exactly where you would expect them to be given the different amount of players. In other words, the individual performance required from each person is almost exactly the same across raid sizes.
Take Magmaw, for example. Median DPS in 10man kills is 91,037, while in 25mans it is 275,245. The latter is 3.01 times the former, slightly less than what you would expect given player numbers (assuming 1 tank/17 dps/7 heals and 1 tank/5 dps/3 heals, the 25man group has 3.4 times the DPS players), but exactly what you would expect given the difference in boss health (25man Magmaw has 3.025 times more health than on 10m).
Heals are a similar story - 25,077 HPS on 10m vs. 57,304 HPS on 25m. Assuming 3 healers on 10m and 7 on 25m (though I'm sure some enterprising 25m guilds have done it with 6 and some 10m with 2), this is exactly where you would expect the numbers to be given identical tuning and mechanics. You'll also notice median fight duration is almost exactly the same for both raid sizes - 428.5 seconds on 10m and 427.9 seconds on 25m.
This is just one example and some fights differ, with either 10m or 25m having more of one or the other than you would expect from the straight up size difference. Still, I think the pattern largely holds across all fights, making the point clear.
Blizzard seems to have achieved almost exactly what it set out to do - reward 25man guilds for the headache of putting together 25 goods, while making the actual fight difficulties very similar. Thus, I am comfortable saying a 10m Magmaw kill requires exactly the same level of performance across players as a 25m one.
Nonetheless, I think Jax is completely correct - 25m will always be more of a pain than 10m for logistical and organizational reasons. It is simply harder to get 25 good players than 10 (I will leave it to others to comment on the vagaries of recruitment on our server), and there's no getting around that.
EDIT: Someone arguing that 10m is harder reminded me that 25mans probably have more mana cooldowns for healers, more CC for adds like lava parasites and more buffs/debuffs. I appreciate the comment.
Edited by Zulrang on 12/31/10 10:52 AM (PST)
Wrath examples have no place in a Cata discussion.
The "extra wiggle room" argument isn't as valid as it was in Wrath. In 25s (currently) you still cannot afford to lose anyone. If a healer dies or a tank dies, without quick action and a brez, it's a wipe.
I will say that the fights are still doable without a single(1) dps. Once you lose two, however, you may as well start over.
25-man raids drop the same relative amount of loot. Two drops in 10-man, five drops in 25-man = 1 drop per 5 raiders. 25s do get 30 extra valor points per boss, but with a weekly cap, once the current normal content is on farm, there will be no difference.
In some cases this is true, but not all. With mechanics that require 25 raiders to be X yards apart in the same size room as a 10-man, it's much more difficult. When you have AoE or chain lightning doing 3x the dmg on 2.5x the number of people, having double the healers doesn't even it out.
The fact remains, however, that there are other issues that can't even be experienced unless you've done both 10- and 25-mans.
Edit: grahmer n speling
Player separation is a valid point and one that I didn't think of, that would certainly add some difficulty to 25 man. I don't think you can explicitly say that one is harder than the other, though, as I feel it's going to depend largely on what boss you are fighting. Taking the Magmaw example, I believe that 10 man is going to present more difficulty in that you are going to have less flexibility with DPS that have viable AoE and fewer aoe slows and stuns. Raid composition will play a big role in many fights, moreso for healers and dps than tanks as 25 man doesn't carry a large load of tanks either. For this example though, I think that Magmaw would be quite difficult without a Hunter, and I can only guess about the chances of not having a particular class/spec in 10 vs 25.
Edited by Yozda on 12/31/10 12:14 PM (PST)
I don't really understand your argument. Like Zul said, the same amount of loot drops per raider in both raid sizes, so why do a 25man expecting "more loot"? If a 10man group kills 2 bosses and a 25man group kills 1 (far more likely than the reverse), the former will have gotten .4 items per member during the raid and the latter only .2 items per raider.
I'd also say a pug 10, or any 10, for that matter, is much more likely to be able to get a group full of "overperformers" (compared to the average skill level on the server) than a 25. Thus, if overperformers want to play with other overperformers, assuming the amount of gear per person is equivalent, they should hurry to do 10s.
Edited by Yozda on 12/31/10 1:11 PM (PST)
This is basically the point of my post. Being successful as a 25man guild is harder because of personnel and logistical difficulties, but that doesn't make a 25man's achievements any more impressive. 10 and 25 encounters were designed to require the same raiding mojo, regardless of size.
I appreciate the intangibles on both sides. Yes, spreading out may be more of a concern on 25. I'd say that's equaled, if not exceeded, by the advantage of having more buff/debuff coverage, more mana cooldowns, more aoe stun/slow, more combat rezzes per raider, higher likelihood of having helpful miscellany like mage food and warlock cookies. Ultimately, I think calling it a wash would be generous to 25s.
25 man guilds will definitely have a harder time progressing at a decent pace, but I imagine a lot of people are willing to struggle through the difficulty/impossibility of recruiting good players because they really enjoy being in a 25man. To each his own.
Edited by Jaxarale on 12/31/10 2:55 PM (PST)
Unfortunately you have zero ability to make this comment with any validity as you have not done a 25 man raid. I will give you an example of how different mechanically a fight is 10 v/s 25
Example: Conclave of the Winds.
Rohash: 2 dps ranged and 1 Healer
Anshal: 3 melee (or sub in a ranged if u only bring 2 melee) 1 healer 1 tank
Nezir: 1 tank 1 healer
The 3 melee on Anshal (heal through the adds aura) 2 ranged on Rohash, the extra 3rd dps making up for the time spent on adds to equal the dps on Rohash.
Rohash: all melee dps and 1/2 heals
Anshal all ranged dps, 2 tanks, 3 heals (it is impossible to heal melee through the adds)
Nezir: 1 tank, 2/3 healers (after his ultimate hes hitting for 90k)
The set up alone is completely opposite of the 10 man strat... I wont go any further but I think you should get the point. The way you do things on 10 are far different than on 25's
We just used ranged to burn all the adds on 10 man and it was face roll (see the achievement for parasites =)
25 man you have to have melee come help on the adds or a TOTALLY different strat and have a DK kite them the whole time (or a hunter! /wink)
The point is that without killing a boss on 25 how could you ever truly know anything about how difficult it is?
Edited by Zulrang on 12/31/10 3:26 PM (PST)
I'll correct this before someone else will. Anshal is the one that hit me for 108k after the ultimate.
Which brings up another point: gearing, for tanks at least, is quite different in 25s as well, as we have to anticipate much higher dmg.
For the most part, I agree with Yozda:
Being successful as a 25man guild is harder because of personnel and logistical difficulties, as well as more complex strategies.
By complex, I don't necessarily mean "wtf SO much harder." Anyone that is making progress at this point could be successful in both 10s or 25s; we all know this. We just enjoy figuring out the larger scale solutions of 25s. They require more effort and are therefore more rewarding for those who are into that, even if the fight mechanics are the same on paper.
Personally I think that the spacing issues are the hardest part about 25s, assuming that your comparing 10 skilled raiders vs 25 skilled raiders.
While strategy might be different I don't really see that as harder, in some cases it makes it easier. You have much more flexibility with additional people and classes allowing you to modify strats to use different abilities.
For your 108k hit from anshal, we all know that his empower gives him a huge damage modifier for 15 sec, I obviously don't know what you tried but there are so many options between stacking tank cds with something like pain suppression, guardian spirit, PWB, hand of sacrifice, or even using a hunter taunt to distract shortly.
My point is with a 10 man your very set in your comp and strat for the most part and have to execute whereas in 25 you have more resources to adjust which is why I feel this specific reason doesn't really work as a set rule why 25s would be harder
I'll correct this before someone else will. Anshal is the one that hit me for 108k after the ultimate
And Duck was getting hit for 90k... no corrections needed homie!!
I guess its just in my opinion but when u can walk in and down 10 man bosses without ever seeing them in 6 - 8 attempts I consider that much easier than 25 mans that take many more attempts.
Whatever the reason is... learning curve, less skilled players, or harder mechanics; to me its just easier by a huge margin to put together an A team and steam roll 10 mans. I think this has been more than evident ever since 10 mans were brought into the game as 10 man progression has far out paced 25's.
Honestly 90k during an empowered ability on 25 doesn't really seem that bad considering I've seen Chimaeron hit for well over 100k on 10 man.
As far as normal modes go almost all of the bosses were killed on 25 man and 10 man within the first 7 days of the expansion. I believe that Nefarian was world first killed in 10 man but the 25 man kill came very soon after it. I can't remember a whole lot of opening bosses in any of the previous that weren't killable in 6-8 attempts on either difficulty. Heroic will be a whole new ballgame I'm sure.
Also your correct that Past evidence has shown that 10 man progression was much easier but with Cata these preconceptions don't seem to be holding. Right now it seems that all the most progressed guilds in the world seem to be doing it in 25.
Cata has made execution across the entire raid very important and honestly that style was really started with LK. Yes its easier to get 10 good people together but that's the requirement to succeed. If you want to do 25 mans more power to you but if your trying to force it without having a very solid group your progression will be slower and that's just the way it is and I for one am in favor of the overall increase in dificulty. Bliz has always said bring the player and not the class, which doesnt always seem to be true, is essentially right. In order to succeed you need to fill all your spots with good players and filling spots with sub optimal people doesn't make encounters hard it just makes them harder for you.
This last bit is just a general view on raiding currently in general as stated previously there will be unique challenges for both 10 and 25. I have yet to read anything that really proves that they didn't get the difficulty of bot modes very close, a few specific encounters aside. Overall I'm extremely happy to be past lawl faceroll 30% buff.
Edited by Jaxarale on 12/31/10 7:44 PM (PST)
Looking at some numbers for T11 normals 12/12 for a decent sample size.
US guilds: 29
EU guilds: 58
US guilds: 41
EU guilds: 80
A bit of difference but not overwhelming by any means, but when you drop to 11/12+ the totals are greatly different in the amount of guilds progressing faster on 10 than 25.
US guilds: 33
EU guilds: 76
US guilds 100+*
EU guilds 100+*
*I could not find the exact amounts because the site only lists top 100 in each category*
This is a 2 to 1 or greater margin in 10 man progression over 25 man. It is of course no way scientific and open to interpretation on what it means but I thought it was a interesting bit of information.
And I have to agree with you Lohth... no 30% buff makes things much more fun and exciting!
85 Undead Warrior
don't say a WORD about bosses.
the fact that you have to lead 15 more people in 25 man than 10 man is a HELL of a challenge.
90% of the players in the World of Warcraft can't lead a rat out of a maze, yet raid leaders do it, despite the challenge of controlling people.
Edited by Yozda on 12/31/10 8:19 PM (PST)
A few points here.
Being successful as a 25man guild is harder because of personnel and logistical difficulties, as well as more complex strategies.
I still haven't seen any strong evidence that 25s require more complex strategies. Just to address some of the stuff that Jax mentioned earlier:
- Conclave of Wind doesn't require a different strategy on 25. I'm sure the way you doods do it is fine, but a bunch of people do it the 10man way with ranged DPS on Rohash and melee on Anshal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UGoWa2FhEI&feature=related, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP8ApDQWRyc&feature=player_embedded#!
- You probably had to switch melee to the parasites on 25m Magmaw because of raid comp. On 10m you had 4 ranged and 2 melee dps (66% of your DPS were ranged), while on 25m you had 8 ranged and 9 melee (47% of your DPS were ranged). I'm guessing that would explain ranged insufficiency on 25m more than a change in mechanics.
I'm sure the strategies you guys used to down 25m content were perfectly fine, but it doesn't seem to me that they imply a greater need for coordination or more threatening mechanics. I think this highlights the danger of generalizing one's guild's experience in raiding to the system as a whole, which is why I've tried to use the data from thousands of attempts to make my point.
More broadly, I think Jax hit the nail on the head when he said "its just easier by a huge margin to put together an A team and steam roll 10 mans". That's what I was trying to get at in my original post. It is much easier to get 10 goods to kill content at a more rapid pace. I don't at all begrudge people who prefer 25s the satisfaction of organizing (corralling?) a larger group of people to down bosses, but I haven't seen any compelling evidence that the content itself is any harder.
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure how entirely fair it is to say that you walked in and downed Magmaw in 6-8 attempts, thus demonstrating that 10s are faceroll. When you guys got it on 10, your doods had the benefit of 16 wipes on it the previous night on 25. ;)