10 or 25 man's which is harder and why?

What is ultimately disappointing about this thread is that it was a originated by a CYA reflex, and not as intelligent discussion. It would be far more beneficial for our server as a whole to discuss things in a more productive manner. I'd much rather see this server act more as a community with some "friendly" competition, rather than self-justification. If this thread were "10s and 25s what are your experiences" we could share with each other things like: OMG tank damage intake in our 25s is insane, or man we lose a healer in our 10s and things go to hell. Speaking of logs, since many of us do log we could comment on why a tank is getting smoked, or why your raid dps is low, or why your healers running out of mana is your soft enrage etc...

Go down some content folks and get this server off the bottom of the list!
Reply Quote
85 Troll Shaman
4080
Minx, I love you so much, and I guffawed so hardily at your post. Lil' Minx is STANDING TALL LIKE THAT ONE DUDED THE ROCK IN THAT MOVIE, STANDING TALL
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
7700
In my opinion the concept that holds most true in this thread is that it's a lot easier to bring 10 rockstars to a 10-man raid than 25 rockstars to a 25-man raid. 99% of guilds in this game - even the great ones - do not have 25 great players. For that reason the average skill level per player will always be higher in 10 mans, which is why 10-man raiding is perceived as being easier.

However, I would like to add a couple points I did not see addressed here. In defense of 10-man raid difficulty, there are clearly raids where 10-man is more difficult. These are fights that, due to the mechanics, allow for less active DPS. This can either be because of the need for a higher number of tanks, or because of mechanics that remove raiders from the fight. Think Sarth 3D - a fight that was clearly more difficult on 10-man due to needing (or at least a strong preference for) 3 tanks. In 10-man that's 30% of the raid. In 25-man it's only 12%. The easiest and most recognizeable correlation I can provide for the current raid tier is Halfus - although there are certainly others. Bringing 5 tanks to hard-mode Halfus trivializes the difficulty, which is only a feasible option in 25-man.

Another point to consider is the long-term guild progression trending. I believe as time goes by, 25-man guilds will have an easier time than 10-man guilds due to the extra loot drops. Yes, the drop ratio is the same in both raid sizes. But, what the raid leader chooses to do with that loot will make a large impact on how fast good players can gear up. Rewarding the best players with loot consistently will skew the performance of the 25-man faster than can be done in a 10-man, where only 2 pieces of loot drop.

Cheers!
Reply Quote
85 Orc Hunter
6210
01/04/2011 3:37 PMPosted by Loongcat
Minx, I love you so much, and I guffawed so hardily at your post. Lil' Minx is STANDING TALL LIKE THAT ONE DUDED THE ROCK IN THAT MOVIE, STANDING TALL


So did... a post on a thread lecturing how the thread should not even be in existence and thereby elongating and adding more to debate made me laugh.

01/04/2011 11:35 AMPosted by Xarnen
What is ultimately disappointing about this thread is that it was a originated by a CYA reflex, and not as intelligent discussion


What is ultimately disappointing is that I had to start this thread to get the trolls off our recruitment thread... by the way... it has worked... no more trolls, guess what? YUP they have all came here to post on mains.

What is ultimately disappointing is that I have no idea what I need to CYA for? Did I lie to my girlfriend and had to start this thread to cover my ass about it? I am totally at a loss as to what your talking about Xarnen.
Edited by Jaxarale on 1/5/2011 4:58 PM PST
Reply Quote
01/04/2011 9:38 AMPosted by Minx
why does it matter exactly whether or not 25-mans are harder than 10-mans? you have got to have a pretty grand sense of self-importance to want to sit here and prove (brag about) how your accomplishment required more skill and effort than someone else's accomplishment.

if you kill a boss, and all you can think about is how superior you are to other groups because you killed him in a 25-man group and not a 10-man group or vice versa, then I just think that is so sad and a little disgusting. when we kill a boss, after cleaning up where I peed from excitement, I just feel great that we killed the boss and all healer loot was defaulted to me.

if your recruitment thread is intruded upon by a troll, then you ignore him, not dedicate a whole new thread to him, unless you just wanted an opportunity to 'debate' about how your boss kills are somehow more momentous.

and if a 25-man group wants to dismiss the progression of a 10-man group, then so what! any active 10-man group currently on cairne is receiving loot faster and pleasuring themselves more often to boss kills than the 25-man ones, and that is all that really matters.

not really, but it is still enjoyable, and this is cairne. we're not getting any world firsts, and we're not even on heroic modes yet, so who really cares. if a 25-man group wants to blame their slower progression solely on the fact that they are a 25-man group rather than a 10-man one, then everyone else should just mind their own beeswax!

I am embarrassed that you guys have been able to discuss something so silly at such length!


also, healing metres are really important! I cream myself every time I get above 2k hps.

p.s. 25-mans are harder!


Hi Minx.

01/04/2011 9:38 AMPosted by Minx
also, healing metres are really important! I cream myself every time I get above 2k hps.

01/04/2011 9:38 AMPosted by Minx
I cream myself every time I get above 2k hps.


I cream myself


I cream
Edited by Xaple on 1/5/2011 4:55 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
7380
01/04/2011 11:35 AMPosted by Xarnen
What is ultimately disappointing about this thread is that it was a originated by a CYA reflex, and not as intelligent discussion. It would be far more beneficial for our server as a whole to discuss things in a more productive manner. I'd much rather see this server act more as a community with some "friendly" competition, rather than self-justification. If this thread were "10s and 25s what are your experiences" we could share with each other things like: OMG tank damage intake in our 25s is insane, or man we lose a healer in our 10s and things go to hell. Speaking of logs, since many of us do log we could comment on why a tank is getting smoked, or why your raid dps is low, or why your healers running out of mana is your soft enrage etc...

Go down some content folks and get this server off the bottom of the list!


The funny, yet sad thing of it is, this whole thing was kick started by me doing exactly as you describe.

I was sharing my experiences with a raider from another guild and was asking about their experiences and strats from the same fights. After some (what I thought was) friendly back and forth about the encounters, they suddenly went all elitist on me and was all "you only downed the bosses because you can carry all the bads in 25s and our 10s are much harder and we're better than you because we've downed more bosses." The next day, they were in our recruitment thread trolling it with the same crap.

I know exactly who it was because they admitted to it.

Jax then started this thread as a place to bring the debate, and as all can see, it didn't take long for people to turn it into a flame-fest. The worst of the posts were even deleted by the mods.

My ideals match yours, however. I would love to see more community here and less epeen measurement.
Edited by Zulrang on 1/5/2011 5:45 PM PST
Reply Quote
I don't know, but I mean the thread title is an invitation for more chest thumping. If you want to do it up right, get Blizz to delete this silly thread. Start up a thread on a boss or something, and not with a potential tone of who's better.
Edited by Xarnen on 1/5/2011 6:59 PM PST
Reply Quote
01/05/2011 4:42 PMPosted by Jaxarale
So did... a post on a thread lecturing how the thread should not even be in existence and thereby elongating and adding more to debate made me laugh.



I don't think this thread shouldn't exist. it is great to have a place where I can express how I deserve more praise and recognition for killing bosses on 10-man because they are so much harder than easy faceroll 25-mans.

really, I think that 25-man progression shouldn't even count. I don't know why 25-man groups even bother posting screen shots on the progression thread, because the 25-man encounters are just so faceroll.

if my guild ever does 25-mans, I know that this thread will be here, and I will just be so grateful to have somewhere to post about how 25-mans are so easy (and faceroll) so everyone who does 25-mans will know how little they have accomplished compared to my 10-man group and me, who are out there doing the real raids.
Edited by Minx on 1/5/2011 7:03 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
10895
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFe_x1oCGLE&feature=sub
Edited by Beatitudes on 1/6/2011 1:31 AM PST
Reply Quote
22 Tauren Druid
100
Let me see if I have this right:

*Skethyl member talks trash to Exodus GM. (starting the 10s are harder than 25s discussion)
*Skethyl members troll on level 1 and 2 alts on Exodus recruitment thread.
*Skethyl members admits to the trolling and laughs about it.
*Exodus asks for them to stop and creates a thread for them to troll on.
*Skethyl and Exodus have 1-1/2 pages of adult discussion on the topic, sharing opinions and numbers.
*Skethyl member trolls, starting to call names and talk trash.
*Skethyl posts are deleted by Blizz mods for the reasons of abuse. (that speaks volumes)
*Skethyl member makes a back handed jab at Exodus's dps and healing numbers.
*Exodus member comments that judging raid difficulty by meters is useless.
*Skethyl member attacks Exodus and the thread as a whole telling them how to handle trolls (the trolls being Skethyl members) <<I found this extremely funny.
*Skethyl member makes a passive aggressive attack at Exodus and hides it in a "lets come together post" (CYA comment?) << not quite sure about this either.
*Exodus member explains the facts behind why the thread was started. (Skethyl trolling)
*Skethyl member attacks Exodus with "chest thumping." dig.
*Skethyl member attacks Exodus with a sarcastic post making no real point.

There's a common thread tying this all together and I really do not understand it?
Isn't your progression 10 filled with 8 ex-long term Exodus members?
If it were me, I would be more appreciative of the time spent there, it surely has helped you in your current progression.

/grabs more popcorn
Edited by Lawldrood on 1/6/2011 11:58 AM PST
Reply Quote
So lots of that seems like the same thing repeated and kinda ridiculous so I decided to make a final post on the matter.

We do not feel that 10 mans are in any way more difficult than 25s, not sure who would say that but if they did not sure what they were thinking. We merely felt slighted when we heard talk going around that 25s are harder and that 25 is real raiding. We defended our opinions as such.

As far as the trolling on alts goes I find it completely ridiculous (All of them)

This of course does not include Minx's comments which were so facetious it hurt, (my side from laughing).

I think we voiced our feelings on the difficulty difference as best we could and people can just decide from what has been said what they think because it seems that everyone has said any constructive opinions that they have at this point and there's not much left to say. In the end we are more interested in downing content than feeling slighted by the above comment so we'll continue to do that so for random people that read this thread, read the good, ignore the bad, and happy raiding.


***Side Notes
Xaples response was also hilarious
Boneypie's post getting deleted was a shame cause it too was hilarious and not at all a negative troll comment, poor snow leopards :(



Reply Quote
Which ended up harder in Cata? =P
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
1275
Raid Finder makes the majority of this post obsolete.
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Shaman
KA
12045
04/29/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Contritus
Which ended up harder in Cata? =P
You would have to go fight by fight, but in general 25 was harder and 10 man was a joke as usual (especially in t13).


I mostly agree with Contritus. However, I would also add that, at least in the 10 person raids, I think Blizzard has failed at their goal of "bring the player not the class". For example, bringing more than 2 melee DPS just doesn't work on some of the 10 person fights. I imagine it's the same for many of the 25 person raids as well (heroic Baleroc seems like it would be difficult with more than a couple melee).

I think this is a pretty good post comparing 10v25:
http://sacredduty.net/2012/03/06/cataclysm-post-mortem-10-man-raids-equality-and-tuning/


1) When X people have to not f**k up, even if X people is the same percent of a raid, 25s have it harder.
2) When there are X things to do, and X is the same for 10s and 25s, then 10s have it harder.
3) When the raid has to spread, 25 man raids have it much, much harder.


I think that's pretty much what it comes down to, although I would add that when the raid has to spread out a lot, healing can become challenging in 10 person raids (I'm thinking of fights like Nef, Atramedes, or even Ragnaros, where the raid is spread out so much that healers are constantly running back and forth trying to get in range to heal everyone).

This post also echos quite a bit of what Paragon said back in T12:
http://www.paragon.fi/articles/10-vs-25-comparison


It's immediately obvious that there's a much greater degree of clarity and control in the 10-mans.

Proper tuning has repercussions though, since class balance has a huge impact when you're forced into two-heal and solo heal situations.

This leads us to the fact that the gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s.


At the end of the day, the numbers don't lie (shameless plug for my own site):

http://mmocover.com/articles/dragon-soul-progression-comparing-10-and-25-person-raid-sizes/
Reply Quote
85 Orc Warlock
4385
It varies by fight on Dragon Soul. I will agree with Khaal's point about class stacking. Fights like spine are awful, especially for classes with any sort of ramp up time. Blizz' mantra about bringing the player and not the class is a bit perplexing given the mechanics it has presented.
Edited by Booesq on 5/2/2012 7:23 AM PDT
Reply Quote
86 Tauren Druid
4055
Via Twitter, a quote from Ghostcrawler this week giving the final answer:

25s have more logistical problems. Overall, I'd say 25s have worked out to be harder. It's subjective for sure. I have seen a lot of 25s scale down to 10 and be able to beat a boss that stumped them.


He clearly agrees with the OP, damn that OP must know a thing or two to be right over a year ago!

/wink
Reply Quote
Ghostcrawler:
25s have more logistical problems. Overall, I'd say 25s have worked out to be harder. It's subjective for sure. I have seen a lot of 25s scale down to 10 and be able to beat a boss that stumped them.


Ghostcrawler:
subjective for sure


Ghostcrawler:
subjective for


Ghostcrawler:
subjective


His quote "I have seen a lot of 25s scale down to 10 and be able to beat a boss that stumped them" doesn't support the notion that 25s are harder; the average skill level of the group goes up after eliminating the 15 worst players. The fact that it is easier to get together 10 goods than 25 goods does not mean that a 25-man encounter is actually harder. I think we went over this on page 1.

P.S. I am glad you are back -- the forum has been boring!
Edited by Yozda on 9/11/2012 12:37 PM PDT
Reply Quote
86 Tauren Druid
4055
subjective for sure


That's like saying... "I think I am pregnant..." lol either you are or your not.

doesn't support the notion that 25s are harder;


Where he says: Overall, I'd say 25s have worked out to be harder.
I mean that supports the hell out of 25s being harder... in fact I think that is exactly what it says... here I'll copy and post it again to see if it changes...

Overall, I'd say 25s have worked out to be harder.

Nope, by God it says the same thing it did when he said it last year... lol

GC can dance on the tip of a pin when it comes to PR spin and bull !@#$ting the player-base... His entire twitter comment was directed at 10s being easier and he puts in "subjective" to cover his %^- because he cant sack up and stand by what he knows...

My opinion became even more ingrained when we walked into DS the first day with 2 tanks 2 heals and 6 Legendary staff wielders and finished it in a matter of hours without seeing the fights on the PTR... The next week we took the entire 25 and it took us 2 days of raid time to finish.
That example is "subjective" to be sure but...

Seems that the same discussion is being had for MoP with amazingly the same results...

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794230099?page=1

Oh and I'm not back, Jax retired after the faceroll that was DS but Pyrae brought me back to heal on a limited engagement. You gonna be raiding?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]