How can people learn?

85 Draenei Shaman
4995
I to feel the need to speak up I have queried for both normal and heroic dungeons and to say the least have been very disappointed to the point I have totally lost interest in a game I love to play. I have 5 lvl 85 players and all but one are maxed on professions so as you can see i not afraid to grind or work to get what i need. you wait 30-45 minutes to get in a dungeon and then are booted for some unknown reason or because you needed on an item or if you do something wrong because you were unfamiliar with a dungeon or youjust have never done it before people just don't want to be bothered. Also of note is the change in attitudes I have seen amongst players since the expansion has come out people for the most part have become so obessesed and to be blunt are just plain rude. Whats wrong with this picture have we forgotten that this is just a game and have we forgotten our manners. I must say that if things continue down this path I really don't forsee me continuing to pay 15.00 dollars a month for this kind of grief.
90 Tauren Paladin
13885
This entire thread makes me sad... Honestly with all the resources there are out there to learn content, and people still want an IWIN button.... I mean come on ppl how hard is it to alt-tab, open google, type in said boss name and find a guide about all the mechanics and a strategy for killing said boss. You can't expect to be babysat by the rest of the community, and expect to have a completely satisfying experience.

Take a little initiative, and learn those boss fights before you go in, so that way when the time comes to fight that boss you don't even have to worry about being berated for your lack of experience.

I mean this with all the respect in the world to the new, or casual player base, but it really doesn't take that much time, or initiative to learn BEFORE you go in. Please just put in a little effort...
90 Draenei Shaman
8795
There is currently an addon that helps in this regard. Boss Notes has many encounter abilities and tactics for some 5 man and raid bosses. Note that the strat they recommend might not be what your group does but abilities are there or are recorder in your first encounter.
85 Night Elf Druid
2805

I disagree with this point (in part). I believe that pretty much everything needed to learn is already in the game.


You lie.

If all of this is already in the game, using nothing but the in game tools tell me:

- Expertise soft cap
- Expertise hard cap
- Hit cap
- Resilience cap
- Define "ignite munching"
- List all the abilities that you can't copy from players with Dark Simulacrum despite their mana cost

None of this is in game. Sry. You lose. There's no expertise teaching quest. There's no resilience quest. There's no priority DPS rotation teaching quest.

Try again.


So basically what this thread boils down to is that people essentially want to login and go kill bosses with no afterthought to character development. Sounds pretty f'ing stupid to me.

edit:

Like I just don't get this f'ing mentality. The original wow community was full of theorycrafting and development that spent their own personal time to figure out by trial and error all these mechanics that are not readily apparent. In some cases the player base has demonstrated a far superior knowledge of game mechanics compared to the actual developers often doing things people never even considered were possible.

Now instead of a community that pushes the boundaries and really strives to test the limit of a closed system we have a bunch of people requesting everything be handed to them, that boss mechanics should be explained in a nice note in game, all stats should have fantastic novels about what they do, etc... etc...

pathetic.
Edited by Flagrun on 1/24/2011 11:34 AM PST
85 Human Priest
6780
Is it THAT hard to look up the fights and come prepared? Many, many players have done it before you, so it is doable.

As it turns out, I'd say you're the jerk for not being willing to do your part and come prepared.
85 Night Elf Druid
2805
01/24/2011 11:33 AMPosted by Nomani
Is it THAT hard to look up the fights and come prepared? Many, many players have done it before you, so it is doable.

As it turns out, I'd say you're the jerk for not being willing to do your part and come prepared.


From the majority of this thread the general consensus is "yes, it is too hard." With 0 explanation about what makes it hard other than "why can't blizzard just do it for us".
85 Goblin Priest
2255
01/24/2011 11:36 AMPosted by Flagrun
Is it THAT hard to look up the fights and come prepared? Many, many players have done it before you, so it is doable.

As it turns out, I'd say you're the jerk for not being willing to do your part and come prepared.


From the majority of this thread the general consensus is "yes, it is too hard." With 0 explanation about what makes it hard other than "why can't blizzard just do it for us".


It seemed to me that OP's gripe was about 5 man's. Expecting people to look up the boss fights for every 5 man dungeon at 85 and learning them before doing a random dungeon seems a tad ridiculous. You can't just tab out to learn the fights while you are in a run because people don't want to sit around and be forced to wait while you do your research.

If the OP were discussing raids, it would be a different story.
85 Blood Elf Priest
6890
i would say this is not blizz's fault that experienced players are being total jerks at "noobs". even if they did stood out and did something about it, i doubt there will be even a slight change in the situation. but i must say even in rl there are experienced people that are total jerks towards others that need their help. It is the way how people are and nobody can do anything about it. I myself always help out people in my party that ask questions i have answers to, as i understand i was a "noob" myself before. *If you want someone to treat you nicely, then treat other people nicely yourself* some people might argue "i always treat people nicely, but some people are still mean to me" That, you have nothing you can do about, i would suggest you ignore those people and get on with your life.

So, back to the ORIGINAL question. How are people expected to learn new content, roles, skills, if the ones that can help refuse to?


There are ones that are willing to help and refuse to help. I would say you cannot expect every single player you encounter to be willing to help you out. Meanwhile there are ones that answer your "noob" questions, there are also other ways you can seek help. For e.g. forums and websites like www.wowhead.com Even people that i knew from my past guilds, when i asked a "noob" question, some ignored me or just loled at my "stupidity", i pretend i did not see their comments and thank people that helped me out.
85 Night Elf Druid
2805



From the majority of this thread the general consensus is "yes, it is too hard." With 0 explanation about what makes it hard other than "why can't blizzard just do it for us".


It seemed to me that OP's gripe was about 5 man's. Expecting people to look up the boss fights for every 5 man dungeon at 85 and learning them before doing a random dungeon seems a tad ridiculous. You can't just tab out to learn the fights while you are in a run because people don't want to sit around and be forced to wait while you do your research.

If the OP were discussing raids, it would be a different story.


So what's the problem with learning the hardway?

I went through every single regular on my paladin as a tank with a couple friends and a couple pugs. Every single boss I'd note mechanics and regardless of a wipe or success I would explain what my thoughts were and ask for similar input from the group.

Come heroics I did the exact same thing. Pay attention and learn from mistakes.

Perhaps the major disconnect here is that people are unwilling to learn from mistakes and instead want the mistakes they make to be covered up by healing/tanking/gear/removal of mechanics/whatever.

This is where the disconnect comes in with PUGS. I know I can depend on my 2 buddies in my group that if they die to something they will acknowledge what killed them and rectify it. If it was a tanking issue we'll figure out what it was. If it was a healing issue we'll figure out why. If it was a standing in bad issue then next time we'll be more aware not to stand in bad. WIth a pug you just don't get that level of intelligence. Countless times I am in a group where someone is standing in Fire/VoidZone/Badness and they die. We explain why they died and what to lookout for; they die to it again. We explain again, confirm with the player they know what to avoid; they die to it again.

Having a basic understanding of your class and mechanics is not too much to ask for. People somehow manage to make it 85 levels without a clue how to play.

edit:
So, back to the ORIGINAL question. How are people expected to learn new content, roles, skills, if the ones that can help refuse to?


Back to this question. Isn't the answer obvious? learn by doing. If you don't know the mechanics of a fight then do the fight and pay attention. you have a combat log. you have debuff bars. You have eyes, ears and a brain. Learn to use them.

Just like I said above, I spent time LEARNING fights. I didn't spend time sleeping through encounters having my hand held. If you see fire on the ground, and standing in that fire does damage to you; MOVE OUT OF THE FIRE. Tough concept i know.
Edited by Flagrun on 1/24/2011 11:50 AM PST
@ OP,

I feel your pain...but there are still 'nice' people playing wow, you just have to find them. I often try help strangers out as you said you do, and if they seem to be nice I'll add them to my friends list and try quest with them in the future. If they turn out to be the type that expect me to treat WOW as my life...I don't even bother completing the quest with them.

There are many people who play wow with the mentality 'know the game before you log' and 'don't waste my oh so important gaming time', but there still are some who like to actually read through the quests and have fun learning while they level. If your server seems overpopulated with elitists, you might have to find another server....it sucks and I've had to do that in the past. Otherwise, try the friends list approach I mentioned.

Wow is just an extention of the real world with less social restraints. It's easier to be a jerk in wow and unfortunately you sort of have to deal with people who subscribe to this mentality. Although I'd love to have more time to dedicate to learning wow inside and out, I have many real life commitments that would be in conflict. If you were on my server I would definitely help you out...and it sounds like there were others on this post that would too.
85 Gnome Rogue
3325
I totally feel you, OP.

I understand the fights, and all of my classes. The issue I've experienced is more with a group composed predominately of veteran players with 1-2 new players who aren't 100% competent with the mechanics and utility of their classes, the dungeon itself, and/or boss fights/pulls.

The biggest issue seems to be the lack of desire for people to explain fights, and the lack of patience to allow me to finish explanations. I can't even count how many times PUGs I've been placed in that have wiped because a tank was too impatient for me to finish explanations to the rest of the group.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11540
01/24/2011 11:33 AMPosted by Nomani
Is it THAT hard to look up the fights and come prepared? Many, many players have done it before you, so it is doable.

As it turns out, I'd say you're the jerk for not being willing to do your part and come prepared.

I'll refer back to the original post:
Hell, event this guy at 20, I was doing randoms and asked a question and got flack for being 'noob'. Well, yeah, really? what gave it away, the level 22 after my name? ppffsstt I had no heirloom gear, nor any other indication I had higher toons. just wanted to see how people treat noobs, and was/am VERY disappointed.


Are you going to honestly tell me that when you were first leveling your first toon, that you went and looked up every fight? I've recounted my leveling experience, but I'll do it again... I started right after TBC came out. I had one friend who played, I did not know that there were all these sites out there that gave information on how to do different things in the game. Up until I hit level 70 and did Kara for the first time did I even know that any of the fights were complicated enough to need to look things up. I learned through experience (dying by not running away when the boss in BF yells "closer, come closer, and BURN!" and by people telling me what I needed to know "when he does his spinning thing, get out of melee range so you don't die" (SM: Armory).

I mean, with the speed of leveling now, you can level up past a dungeon in one run. So you get into a new dungeon using LFD randoms and pause the group to say "hey, I'm going to read up on the instance." I mean, my GF has gotten two toons to level 60 in a month and a half, she hasn't seen a quarter of the dungeons out there yet (we were DPS, so queue times were longer).

Yes, I fully agree that you should come prepared before going into a heroic or a raid. But that's not even what the OP was talking about. He was talking about normal 5 mans, even normal 5 mans while leveling!

I guess I just get lucky that when I say "hey, haven't been here before, anything I need to know" that a majority of people I've played with tell me what's important, or we can recover quickly if it's something that kills us (curse you mind control in Stratholme dead side!)
85 Night Elf Warrior
4375
01/24/2011 10:32 AMPosted by Lylirra
We're definitely looking into ways to add more information about raid and dungeon bosses directly into the game client. For example, as discussed at BlizzCon 2010 in the Raids and Dungeons panel, we're already discussing the possibility of incorporating loot tables and boss abilities into zone maps. While "enhanced maps" are still in their formative stages, we love the idea of a player being able to access a variety of information about a specific boss -- including what it drops, what abilities it has, and maybe even some lore about who it is and why everyone in Azeroth wants to kill it -- just by opening her map and mousing over an icon.

This is all still on the horizon, of course, and would likely be something that's implemented in stages. Nevertheless, we agree that the game could provide better tools for players who are adapting to new content and are currently working to bridge that gap for the future (in a meaningful way that doesn't undermine or spoil the experience).

Please put a library or something in game where there are books players can read that describe all the dungeon/raid fights.


What about some kind of journal that updates as you encounter enemies and has entries about them? It would fit neatly into the quest log and has been done in many other games. You could even sort enemies by location. No need to tell us exactly how to counter or fight the bosses, but ability descriptions much like what players see on their own ability tabs would be welcome. Currently I think that info is gleaned mostly from data mining.
85 Night Elf Warrior
7020
Do what others have done , and what I have done perhaps, before going in to the dungeon watch videos on the bosses in instance you havent been in. When my team of people were farming heroics in the first week of cata, I had a page open with boss guide links so I could take a minute to watch thsoe real quick to get an idea of what to do, and we did it.

Also the blue team seems to have tried pretty hard in telling what players to look out for, I know they arent exactly linking boss guides, but there are plenty of options out there to look for.

Wowhead
tankspot
youtube

You just have to look, and other players have to look for things to. People just come on these forums complain and only read about other complainers, rather then read about what could make them a better player. but if you are willing to learn the tools are there and its your choice to use them or not
85 Night Elf Druid
2805
01/06/2011 8:49 AMPosted by Greendeath
Eh you got 84 lvls before endgame content, that's enough time for noob and newb players to learn the ropes.


eeehh, what about noob 80, 83, 85? We magically know Cata content when reaching a certain level? Automatically know every Wrath instance after Outland? Get inst-knowledge on Outland dungeons once we clear vanilla?

You response makes no sense.


Makes perfect sense. There isn't a single mechanic in game that people haven't experienced before.

Void Zones - check
Fire on ground - check
Interrupts - check
Frontal Cleave - check
Big Animation on Ground to Avoid - check
Adds - check
Debuff to cleanse - check
Need to use item on Boss - check
things to click - check

Every single mechanic in end game raiding or heroics or any boss is some combination of the above. There is nothing new about any boss just different ways that they use the same mechanics. The only difference between bosses is what players are required to pay attention to and this is where the failure happens.
71 Human Warrior
0
01/24/2011 10:32 AMPosted by Lylirra
We're definitely looking into ways to add more information about raid and dungeon bosses directly into the game client. For example, as discussed at BlizzCon 2010 in the Raids and Dungeons panel, we're already discussing the possibility of incorporating loot tables and boss abilities into zone maps. While "enhanced maps" are still in their formative stages, we love the idea of a player being able to access a variety of information about a specific boss -- including what it drops, what abilities it has, and maybe even some lore about who it is and why everyone in Azeroth wants to kill it -- just by opening her map and mousing over an icon.

This is a good solution for a quick look at bosses, but does not fix the lack of information in-game about the Healing/Defense roles.

I'd wager the Damage queues would be less long if more people had information on how to properly tank and heal in-game. They would, at least, feel comfortable enough to learn these roles on their own, rather than through trial and error with a playerbase that is not the most patient. If nothing else, it would allow people to learn what they enjoy in the game and concentrate on doing that.
Edited by Zoelle on 1/24/2011 11:59 AM PST
85 Goblin Priest
2255
So what's the problem with learning the hardway?

I went through every single regular on my paladin as a tank with a couple friends and a couple pugs. Every single boss I'd note mechanics and regardless of a wipe or success I would explain what my thoughts were and ask for similar input from the group.

Come heroics I did the exact same thing. Pay attention and learn from mistakes.

Perhaps the major disconnect here is that people are unwilling to learn from mistakes and instead want the mistakes they make to be covered up by healing/tanking/gear/removal of mechanics/whatever.

This is where the disconnect comes in with PUGS. I know I can depend on my 2 buddies in my group that if they die to something they will acknowledge what killed them and rectify it. If it was a tanking issue we'll figure out what it was. If it was a healing issue we'll figure out why. If it was a standing in bad issue then next time we'll be more aware not to stand in bad. WIth a pug you just don't get that level of intelligence. Countless times I am in a group where someone is standing in Fire/VoidZone/Badness and they die. We explain why they died and what to lookout for; they die to it again. We explain again, confirm with the player they know what to avoid; they die to it again.

Having a basic understanding of your class and mechanics is not too much to ask for. People somehow manage to make it 85 levels without a clue how to play.


To your first point, OP was griping about getting kicked because he/she doesn't know the fights. Kind of hard to learn from trial and error if you aren't given a chance to learn.

To your second point, sure, if you level as a certain spec you should know it and how to play it. However, if you switch specs end game, you might need a little help learning your new rotation. Thankfully most of this can be found on the class forums, but I can understand the desire to have it in game. Also, dps doesn't become a major priority until end game, so often times people won't have their ideal spec or rotation due to using a leveling spec and not worrying about optimizing their dps rotation.
85 Undead Mage
5995
I have found there are lots of people who are willing to take the time to explain fights.

Remember while a forum community will consist of a wide variety of player types with different attitudes about the game, there will be a higher concentration of people who complain.

Most people I have run with realize that not everyone is born with the knowledge of how a boss fight works. Most people I play with realise that is really only takes 1 or 2 sentences to explain a boss fight for a specific role.

this game is meant to be fun, not study time. In order to be competant at the game you really only need to pay attention.
85 Night Elf Priest
8855
I really wish the established, experienced, skilled and well-guilded raiders would consider:

1. New, lesser established, lesser skilled and lesser well-guilded players are the lifeblood of this game. Reducing their numbers and influx is not going to make this game better. Instead, the game will suffer for it. Seriously, this should be clearly obvious.

2. Making the game over-daunting for them serves no good purpose for us, and instead interferes with the flow of that lifeblood. Why does anyone want them to leave? How does their being here interfere with your raids? Or is your progression based on 5 mans? /facepalm

3. When did any true raiders consider 5 man heroics to be the arena for determing how much they had achieved? I have never thought they were myself, and that instead, raid progression has always been where pve progression mattered. I mean, no good raiding guild gives a hoot in hades how many heroic 5 mans you did. Maybe you and your guild are not nearly so advanced as you were thinking?



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